Horseman/Topcon lenses

The Horseman system (e.g. 980, 985, VH-R) seems to be perfect for me, from what I know at least. It folds up, travels well and can be used handheld with the RF or on a tripod when the situation demands movements. That's all great, but there are still a few key details about the system that perplex me:

• By my understanding all Horseman press cameras have separate VF/RF windows. I've read in several places, however, that the VH-R has a combined viewfinder/rangefinder window. Looking at pictures, it appears as though the windows are indeed separate, but from what I had read they seem pretty adamant about the windows being combined. (The posts are in Google Groups and Photo.net, I wish I could find them again).
• Assuming the windows are separate, like on the 970/980/985, could I place my left eye against the VF and my right against the RF to view both at the same time and speed up focusing? I've heard all sorts of things about the feasibility of this, ranging from "the cameras were made to do this" to "it's impossible".
• What's the deal with lenses? I understand the Professional line had less coverage, but did those lenses have poorer optical quality too? I've read the Super, Super ER and Super MC lines had "enhanced" optical formulas, but can only confirm they had better coatings. Is there any difference amongst those three types of "Super" lenses?
• The lenses I'm considering are the following:
  • Professional 75mm f/5.6
  • Super ER 75mm f/5.6
  • Super MC 75mm f/5.6
  • Super Topcor 90mm f/5.6
  • Super ER 90mm f/5.6
  • Professional 105mm f/3.5
• I've heard "the 75mm Professional is a real gem [comparable to a modern Rodenstock]" but alas I have not seen any conclusive sample images from it or the other lenses. Looking on Flickr, most examples appear to be soft; bad scans or out of focus, a few are tack sharp with the 90mm f/5.6 (but I don't know which version). This information is all so confusing; at times outright conflicting with itself. I could really use some help here!

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/horseman/horseman_vh-r/horseman_vh-r.htm More evidence that ill-informed posts on the Internet are, well, ill-informed.

If you're not horribly deformed you won't be able to look through the RF with your right eye and through the VF with your left eye. Are you horribly deformed?

Dan Fromm said:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/horseman/horseman_vh-r/horseman_vh-r.htm More evidence that ill-informed posts on the Internet are, well, ill-informed.

If you're not horribly deformed you won't be able to look through the RF with your right eye and through the VF with your left eye. Are you horribly deformed?

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Thanks for the link, I've started taking a look through the 985 and VH-R manuals. I'm not horribly deformed, but I am beginning to suspect the people who said you could use both the RF and VF at the same time are...

Dan is right about the VF/RF. Iif you plan to do Leica style shooting with theses cameras, forget it. While it is possible to use them hand held, it takes a bit of exercise and is much more complicated then just snapping away with a Leica M. If you want to shoot 6x9 cm format rangefinder style, a Fuji GW690 would be a much better choice, me thinks. For me personally it doesn't make a lot of sense to use this type of relatively clumsy and heavy camera on moving targets, but others my differ.

Lenses:

(1)
The older, single coated Horseman lenses for 6x9 (non-"ER") where split in "PRO" and "SUPER" designated lenses. The "PRO" lenses had (considerably) smaller coverage and usually don't allow much movements if any. The "SUPER" lenses can usually make full use of the movements the Horseman cameras offer (image circle around 150mm). For any give focal length there is usually only one type "SUPER" or "PRO", the only focal length with both lens types is 105mm. The 105mm PRO is a Tessar, the SUPER a Plasmat (?) type. You will be fine with the PRO if you don't need any movements. I don't think there is a big difference in sharpness. The single coated SUPER 105mm is huge and the camera cannot be closed with the lens mounted.

(2)
With the introduction of the multicoated lenses ("ER") Horseman gave up the "SUPER"/"PRO" differentiation. All the lenses were called "SUPER ER" now. However, the underlying lens designs in most cases did not change, so the 75mm, which used to be a "PRO" was called "SUPER" now, but in fact its basic design and consequentially its coverage didn't change. The only lens with a significant change in design was the 105mm. The two older single-coated designs (f3.5 and f4.5) were dropped in favor of a much smaller f5.6/105mm with the coverage of the old SUPER but the compactness of the old PRO. I have all three 105 mm lenses but have not made any direct comparisons. If in doubt, I would prefer the ER over the other two (but see point 4 below!),

(3)
The "Super MC 75" on your list is the same as the "Super ER 75", which is basically the same design as the older "75mm PRO", only multi-coated. The 90mm (plain Super or Super ER) is a fine lens, I use it a lot.

(4)
One thing to keep in mind when you want to use these cameras/lenses hand held is that you have to figure out a way to fire the shutter conveniently. For the older camera types (up to the VH/VH-R) an "electric grip" exists, which consists of the grip with a battery and a trigger attached to the camera body, a wire and a solenoid shutter release that is attached to the lens. You press the trigger at the grip, the solenoid moves and pushes a pin down to release the shutter on the lens. It's a bit retro, but it works. The downside is, if you want to use theses lenses without the grip (for example when working on a tripod with ground glass focusing), you need a special Horseman cable release, because a normal cable release will not fit. These can be a bit difficult to find nowadays.

The newer style ER lenses do have a normal cable release fitting, but for that exact reason you cannot use them with the convenient old style "electric grip". These have the solenoid integrated into the lens board as they were designed with the ER camera in mind, that had eletrical contacts to fire theses shutters directly from the body grip. With the ER lenses you would have to release the shutter via a normal cable release (or by hand directly at the lens/shutter), which can be a bit counter intuitive when shooting hand held.

I have a VH-R. The VF and RF windows are indeed separate, and, shall we say, not ideally situated for simultaneous use.

Seriously, now: the VH-R has another characteristic annoyance having to do with the VF, which is that you will be unlikely to find one equipped with an eyecup. Mine doesn't have one, and often I find it difficult to see the framelines clearly - visibility is exquisitely sensitive to both ambient light conditions and exact eye positioning, which in turn is affected by whether I'm shooting with a roll holder or a cut sheet holder. I think the older models are more commonly found with eyecup. BTW, some years ago I had someone in Japan try to get an eyecup for the VH-R from Komamura, but the part was not available.

Thank you for the replies. I've learned a lot from both of them. In regards to the 75 and 90, I've heard they are both Planar designs, so could I expect similar performance with the 75mm as I could the 90m? By the looks of it, the 90mm f/5.6 seems like an excellent lens. I just found a few sample images taken by this lens with good scans and the results are stunning, although I'd be more interested in a shorter focal length. I loved the 75mm focal length on 6x7, but wished it was a touch wider, which is what 6x9 would give me.

As for hand-holding a Horseman (I'm leaning towards a 980 or 985) I'd be taking things a bit slower than what someone would buy a Leica M for as you had suggested. I would handhold quite a bit, but seldom where the composition lasts for a fleeting moment. I'd expect something more along the lines of Shore's or Eggleston's compositions; more deliberate and often less time-sensitive than, say, much of HCB's work. Out of curiosity, how quick would it be to focus one of these Horseman rangefinders compared to a RB67 handheld? I could focus my RB67 with decent speed, but no matter what the accuracy suffered. Having tried split RF/VF cameras in the past, I found I could focus quicker with a rangefinder than a SLR; I could confirm accurate focus more rapidly. Despite being able to look into a SLR's viewfinder more quickly (e.g. the RB67's, even with a split screen), I was still searching for correct focus. That said, should I still explore other options with a combined RF/VF? Namely the Mamiya Super 23 and Linhof Technika 70?

I had a VH-R, I sold it and got a Fujinon gw690III, never looked back. for the movements I use a 5x4. The "talking points" for VH-R are better than "the using". just my two cents. Also I did not think topcor lenses are all that sharp.

gzinsel said:

I had a VH-R, I sold it and got a Fujinon gw690III, never looked back. for the movements I use a 5x4. The "talking points" for VH-R are better than "the using". just my two cents. Also I did not think topcor lenses are all that sharp.

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Good to hear. Not what I want to hear, but useful nonetheless. I've kept the GW690 and GL690 on the backburner, so to speak, for a while. I like the concept of them, but I feel like I'm not gaining anything with regard to form factor/bulk/weight over the RB67. This is what led to an interest in the Mamiya Super 23, which seems like a compromise between the Horseman and the Fuji. Of course, the form factor issues with something like the 90 or 100 (which allow rear tilt) bring me back to square one, and the optical quality with those options isn't too great either.

One solution I've thought of is to buy a 50mm, 75mm or 100mm f/2.8 lens for walk-around use and a broken lens to salvage for the helicoid. I'd replace the broken lens with a better performing one of a focal length that would permit rear movements at infinity (I don't need this lens to work with the rangefinder). I figure if I'm going to be using movements, I'm going to be using a tripod, which means I'd be using a backpack, which would in turn have room for another lens besides that walk-around one. Of course, the 75mm and the 100mm bring back camera size issues. In regards to the 50mm, this plan is counting on using the Mamiya Super 23 with no external viewfinder. If I go for a Mamiya Super 23, one of its big selling points is the combined RF/VF. Without that, I figure I might as well go with a Horseman. Less trouble with lenses, and the ones I've looked at (the focal lengths that interest me the most) seem to be up to modern standards (90mm Super ER, 65mm Super ER). Besides that, the Horseman folds up into itself, and that's a dream for traveling with. Do you by any chance remember which Topcor lenses you had tried, and why they were sub par?

Bipin said:

Thank you for the replies. I've learned a lot from both of them. In regards to the 75 and 90, I've heard they are both Planar designs, so could I expect similar performance with the 75mm as I could the 90m? By the looks of it, the 90mm f/5.6 seems like an excellent lens. I just found a few sample images taken by this lens with good scans and the results are stunning, although I'd be more interested in a shorter focal length. I loved the 75mm focal length on 6x7, but wished it was a touch wider, which is what 6x9 would give me.

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I have no personal experience with the Horseman 75, but with the 65, the 90, the 105 and the 150 and they are all as sharp as the modern Schneider and Fuji large format lenses. I used the 90 ER alongside a modern Schneider Super-Angulon f5.6/75 mm and found both lenses to be equally sharp. Anyhow, lens sharpness will be mostly irrelevant when shooting these cameras hand held because focusing error and your ability to hold the camera steady will set limits to how much sharpness you can get out of it. Simply pick the lens with the angle of view that best fits your photographic needs.

One important point I forgot to mention: Make sure you get the correct focusing cam for the lens/FL you intend to use, because you cannot use the RF without it!

My 75mm Horseman is a real gem. Seems to be the sharpest of the lot. The 65mm has the strictest requirement for the front standard to be perfectly parallel to the film plane (the detents are adjustable). The 6x9 film holders will buckel the film on occasion. I try to use all 8 frames on a given outing and not let the film sit half-way through a roll. In my case the electric release improved hand-held sharpness over the mechanical plunger release. The rangefinder is adjustable if it is out of whack.
The 65mm and 75mm share the same infinity stop. So, if you own both they both need to be either on the flat (hammered finish) or recessed (wrinkle finish) lens boards.

Is anyone familiar with this website, and the validity of its testing? http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html The 90mm Super ER does indeed seem to do well. With regards to sharpness, it's not so much a search for the sharpest lens in the world as it is an acceptably sharp lens. Quite a few of the images I had initially seen on Flickr must of been out of focus or poorly scanned (or victims of their new compression methods). Looking at more images elsewhere online, they tend to support the good things often said about these lenses.

ic-racer said:

My 75mm Horseman is a real gem. Seems to be the sharpest of the lot. The 65mm has the strictest requirement for the front standard to be perfectly parallel to the film plane (the detents are adjustable). The 6x9 film holders will buckel the film on occasion. I try to use all 8 frames on a given outing and not let the film sit half-way through a roll. In my case the electric release improved hand-held sharpness over the mechanical plunger release. The rangefinder is adjustable if it is out of whack.
The 65mm and 75mm share the same infinity stop. So, if you own both they both need to be either on the flat (hammered finish) or recessed (wrinkle finish) lens boards.

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By having the same infinity stops, does that mean both the 65mm and 75mm are equally restrictive in respect to movements at infinity?

Bipin said:

By having the same infinity stops, does that mean both the 65mm and 75mm are equally restrictive in respect to movements at infinity?

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The infinity stops have nothing to do with movements. Restrictions in movement are normally dependent on a) the available image circle and b) ,in the case of wide angle lenses, the flexibility of the bellows and possible interference with parts of the camera body. The 75 mm and 65 mm share the same infinity stop position (see below for explanation why), which has enough clearance from the body to allow the 65mm full movements, but the 75mm cannot make full use of the movements because its image circle is limited to 120mm or thereabout.

The infinity stops have functions: 1) facilitate setting up the camera, especially when you are in a hurry or/and it is to dark to focus on the ground glass 2) Putting the lens in the correct position on the focusing rails in respect to the focusing cam that mechanically interacts with the rangefinder mechanism.

As the place on the focusing rail is limited, and Horseman wanted to give all its lenses an infinity stop (and the ability to be focused with the RF), some lenses have to share one infinity stop position. Normally lenses of different focal length will have different infinity stops (because of their different flange focal distances), so these differences are made up for by using boards with different amounts of recess. For example, the 65mm lens board is recessed deeper than the 75mm lens board to make up for the shorter flange focal length of the 65mm. Another pair that shares infinity stops is the 90 and the 105mm f3.5 ("PRO"). Also the 180mm (a tele design) and the 150mm, IIRC.

To make this as simple and straightforward in practice as possible, the lenses and infinity stops are color coded. You simply look at the color code on the lens and know which pair of infinity stops is the correct one for the lens. The RF cams are color coded in the same way.

The lenses for the older 980 etc. cameras came on different lens boards (hammered finish) and use slightly different recess in some cases, there might be some incompatibilities with the infinity stops when used on the newer cameras (VH/VH-R) with lens boards with wrinkle paint finish, and the other way round, but I have no first hand experience, this is just speculation on my side.

Thank you for the in-depth reply, though I already knew much of what you had said, I did learn a number of things. What I meant with the infinity stops and restricted movements is that I had read the 65mm's position so far inside the body had restricted its ability to use movements. Not an issue with coverage so much as one with the front standing bumping against the body when a certain amount of shift or rise was applied. I figured if the 75 had the same infinity stop, then it too would be restricted by a lack of room for movements. Perhaps the person who had said this (I read it on photo.net somewhere) was not using a recessed board. I suppose any inconsistencies in recess between hammertone and wrinkle paint boards could be accounted for by shifting the infinity stop up or down the rail a few millimeters, and this would not affect rangefinder accuracy so long as infinity was the same in the RF and on the GG?

Not much movement available for the 75 due to image circle; wrinkle finish 65 board is more recessed than older version, allowing movements.
You dont want to change the infinity stops when yoy change lens board vintage, you can make a spacer. Best, however to get lenses ov similar vintage.

Bipin said:

Thank you for the in-depth reply, though I already knew much of what you had said, I did learn a number of things. What I meant with the infinity stops and restricted movements is that I had read the 65mm's position so far inside the body had restricted its ability to use movements. Not an issue with coverage so much as one with the front standing bumping against the body when a certain amount of shift or rise was applied. I figured if the 75 had the same infinity stop, then it too would be restricted by a lack of room for movements. Perhaps the person who had said this (I read it on photo.net somewhere) was not using a recessed board.

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I have a Schneider SA 75mm f5.6 and it clears the body and will allow normal movements. The Horseman 75 will not allow any movements (lack of image circle), but if it had enough image circle it would not be restricted in movements even on a flat board. The reason it is mounted on a recessed board is to allow it to share infinity stops with the 65 (see my post above).The wrinkle finish 65 or the 65 ER will allow full movements on the camera. However, if you use a 65 on a flat board, movements will be restricted;

Bipin said:

I suppose any inconsistencies in recess between hammertone and wrinkle paint boards could be accounted for by shifting the infinity stop up or down the rail a few millimeters, and this would not affect rangefinder accuracy so long as infinity was the same in the RF and on the GG?

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I agree with ic-racer here.

Thanks for the information on the 75mm and 65mm, ic-racer and mnemosyne; much appreciated! At present I'm leaning towards the 65mm. I love how wide it is and that it has generous room for movements; a good choice for shooting handheld and for architecture or landscape; on a tripod, when I need movements. As I understand, the viewfinder covers 85% of the 65mm's frame. In practical use handheld (which I understand is always a bit impractical) is it problematic to have a viewfinder that covers less than the lens does? On the other hand, I wouldn't need too much movement, too often. For what I would use, it would often be tilt. I like everything else about the 75mm lens (namely the focal length, well-regarded optics and 105% viewfinder coverage). Would that be a better choice to fulfill my needs?

EDIT: Do I need to drop the bed when using the 65mm lens? If so, does this interfere with rangefinder focusing?

Bipin said:

Thanks for the information on the 75mm and 65mm, ic-racer and mnemosyne; much appreciated! At present I'm leaning towards the 65mm. I love how wide it is and that it has generous room for movements; a good choice for shooting handheld and for architecture or landscape; on a tripod, when I need movements. As I understand, the viewfinder covers 85% of the 65mm's frame. In practical use handheld (which I understand is always a bit impractical) is it problematic to have a viewfinder that covers less than the lens does? On the other hand, I wouldn't need too much movement, too often. For what I would use, it would often be tilt. I like everything else about the 75mm lens (namely the focal length, well-regarded optics and 105% viewfinder coverage). Would that be a better choice to fulfill my needs?

EDIT: Do I need to drop the bed when using the 65mm lens? If so, does this interfere with rangefinder focusing?

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Not sure which camera we are talking about, but in case of the VH-R/VH:
The only thing you have to keep in mind is that when shooting in portrait orientation with the 65mm and 75mm lens that you give the camera a bit (~1 cm) of front rise. There is a red index mark on the front standard that shows the necessary amount of rise. I have to check, but it's probably not possible to focus the 65/75 with the bed dropped. You can find the VHR manual as download at BUTKUS.org, it is very detailed and answers a lot of questions!

Horseman offered adapters for their shutters so they would accept a standard cable release. I've "converted" all my lenses with the adapter, but I doubt they are easy to find anymore. If there were enough demand, an independent machine shop could probably turn out a run of them.

At least through the VHR, I believe the "Super" lenses would cover the 4x5 format obtained by the 4x5 Horseman adapter (for the 6x9 cameras). The Pro lenses were, I believe, intended for the standared VHR 6x9CM format.

I like the VHR, but I cannot understand why Horseman removed the sync terminal from the shutter and mounted it on the lens board. If you want to use a horseman lens on another camera (say a Century Graphic) you either have to install a sync contact from a junker camera on the lensboard similar to the Horseman placement, or lose flash syncronization. If you see Horseman lenses being sold without the original Horseman lensboard, the flash sync has usually been disconnected.

mnemosyne said:

The newer style ER lenses do have a normal cable release fitting.

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What specifically is considered a "normal" fitting? What thread/release will work?

Sorry for waking a zombie thread, but the new rules mean I can't PM you if I don't have enough posts on here.

The older Horseman lensbords took the HORSEMAN "Special" cable release. However, there was an adapter available, so really, with the adapter you can use any of the Horseman lenses with a standard cable release, but you can't use the ER1 lenses with the "Special" cable release that attaches to the camera body for you thumb.

ic-racer said:

The older Horseman lensbords took the HORSEMAN "Special" cable release. However, there was an adapter available, so really, with the adapter you can use any of the Horseman lenses with a standard cable release, but you can't use the ER1 lenses with the "Special" cable release that attaches to the camera body for you thumb.

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What I was asking about was compatibility for the Super ER lenses with this trigger.

All of my lenses have this style. I was just curious which cable release I should be looking for.

"Standard" tapered cable release.

ic-racer said:

"Standard" tapered cable release.

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Thanks. I only ask because I thought I read somewhere that Horseman had their own proprietary thread for these. Maybe I'm just mistaken though.

Jmatteson said:

Thanks. I only ask because I thought I read somewhere that Horseman had their own proprietary thread for these. Maybe I'm just mistaken though.

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Yes, but that one is for the NON-ER lenses. More specifically the solenoid is removed on those and the cable release is put in its place.

ic-racer said:

Yes, but that one is for the NON-ER lenses. More specifically the solenoid is removed on those and the cable release is put in its place.

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Ah, ok. That makes sense. The few lenses I have left to complete my set will all be the ER lenses anyway. Thanks!