Horizontal banding on negatives driving me BANANAS!

sambrownsaround · Jan 21, 2021

What could be causing this horizontal banding issue? The bands are inconsistent and run horizontally across the roll of 35mm film. They do not appear in the border. I develop at home and follow a pretty standard agitation schedule. (10 seconds every minute, using the stick to agitate about 1/2 turn in each direction for both dev and fix) the film is newly purchased Ilford HP5+ developed using times from MassDev. The lines are visible on the negatives, and these three photos are in sequence, frames 11, 12, 13 respectively. I use the tap water out of the faucet and temperature can sometimes vary slightly in the wash. I have sometimes had the same lines on 120 film. they are always most visible in sky and snow. I'm not so bummed that they exist but not knowing why IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!!! They do not appear to be on the rest of the roll but it is not easy to tell because they are very subtle. Any Ideas?

ic-racer · Jan 21, 2021

Can we see the negatives? What developer and dilution and time, I ask because it appears to be a developer issue.

Pieter12 · Jan 21, 2021

Try inversion agitation instead of the stick.

Ron789 · Jan 21, 2021

Bromide drag, caused by your agitation method: turning the spool with the stick is a bad method. Throw that stick away; instead, agitate by flipping the entire tank upside down one or twice every agitation.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 21, 2021

Do the bands line up with the sprocket holes?

sambrownsaround · Jan 21, 2021

Developer is HC-110 (1+31) for 5 min. sorry for the cell phone negative picture. I believe the others are right about the stick causing bromide drag on further research.

sambrownsaround · Jan 21, 2021

Ron789 said:
Bromide drag, caused by your agitation method: turning the spool with the stick is a bad method. Throw that stick away; instead, agitate by flipping the entire tank upside down one or twice every agitation.

Thank you for this! I think this is my problem.

sambrownsaround · Jan 21, 2021

Thank you for the quick replies everyone! I am thrilled to get such good responses for my first time asking a question on this forum. No more lurking for me!

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 21, 2021

I've never seen bromide drag running the length of the film, if that is indeed what it is. Do as suggested, bin the stick. Try agitating in figure 8 pattern. That is what I get my students to do.

jimjm · Jan 21, 2021

Never used the twirly stick just for this reason. It causes the developer to flow too consistently in the same directions across the film.
I do 2 or 3 gentle full inversions of the tank every 30 sec or 1 minute (depending on the film and developer), with a half-twist of the tank as I invert it.
Haven't had any problems with surge marks in a long time.

btaylor · Jan 22, 2021

No swizzle?
I don’t invert because I don’t like the leaks. I swizzle with the Paterson and have never had an issue. I’m not gentle with it and spin it to move the developer to the center. YMMV— Whatever works for you

koraks · Jan 22, 2021

I've swizzled with the twizzle swizzly stick on a Paterson a few times; didn't notice any issues. However, don't be too gentle with it. Half a turn seems like you're being overly cautious. You need to twist it like a randy teen in the 1960s.

jimjm · Jan 22, 2021

btaylor said:
No swizzle?
I don’t invert because I don’t like the leaks. I swizzle with the Paterson and have never had an issue. I’m not gentle with it and spin it to move the developer to the center. YMMV— Whatever works for you

I use the Paterson as well and used to have minor leaking during inversions until someone told me to try "burping" the lid after sealing it, like you do with tupperware. The slight vacuum creates an air-tight seal.
I have 3 Paterson tanks and none of them leak at all.

grain elevator · Jan 22, 2021

Do keep the stick for the initial agaitation. It's good at getting rid a of air bubbles, and this way you can do the time consuming closing of the lid after initial agaitation rather than letting the film just sit with lots of air bells while you do it. Do later agitation by inversion. As others have mentioned, you need to be somewhat vigorous with the stick.

voceumana · Jan 22, 2021

For development times in a tank of 5 minutes or less agitation is normally recommended as 5 seconds every 30 seconds. Also, development times of less than 5 minutes are not usually recommended for tanks development because they can give inconsistent results. I've often disobeyed the 2nd rule with no seeming ill effects, but my procedure was very consistent.

You need more agitation than you are giving and stronger agitation. Inversion is the way to solve the strength of the agitation. What agitation you do needs to mix the used developer with the unused. For 35mm, I find if I use a tank that fits 2 reels and only have the lower one with film, gentle inversion works well. I'd suggest diluting you developer further to extend the time. It will allow for more consistent results.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 22, 2021

koraks said:
I've swizzled with the twizzle swizzly stick on a Paterson a few times; didn't notice any issues. However, don't be too gentle with it. Half a turn seems like you're being overly cautious. You need to twist it like a randy teen in the 1960s.

ditto. Don’t be gentle with the swizzle stick, and swizzle in both directions. Also, if you invert, don’t be gentle or slow about it. The point of agitation is to move fresh developer into contact with the emulsion in a non-uniform way. If you slow way down because you’re afraid of making surge marks, you allow the liquid to “pour” across the emulsion which creates different surge marks. Just quickly turn it upside down then back up, twist the tank a quarter turn, and repeat. You should be able to do that 4 times in less than 10 seconds, then bump the tank on the table to dislodge air bubbles and let it sit. If the liquid is only moving for a grand total of 10 seconds per minute, it’s pretty difficult to get any kind of surge marks anywhere.

agitation is one of those things that’s not difficult to do well, and also not difficult to totally boff up. Keep it simple, be quick and short about it.

Agulliver · Jan 22, 2021

The one or two times I tried the swizzle stick, I really gave the reel a few complete rotations for each agitation. When I develop motion picture film in a tank that requires rotation for agitation I do the same, two or three complete revolutions.

But I am a proponent of inversion. And I've never had a tank leak more than the odd drop....Jobo or Paterson.

jgboothe · Jan 25, 2021

jimjm said:
I use the Paterson as well and used to have minor leaking during inversions until someone told me to try "burping" the lid after sealing it, like you do with tupperware. The slight vacuum creates an air-tight seal.
I have 3 Paterson tanks and none of them leak at all.

I second this. Immediately after closing the lid, press down on the centre of it to create pressure, then lift one edge of the lid whilst keeping the pressure on, to let out some air, then seal the lid again whilst maintaining pressure. Creates a vacuum which completely stops leaks (at least during development).
Apart from the streaks, the negs are developed more on one side compared to the other, which also suggests inadequate (and largely horizontal) agitation. Switching to inversion should sort this out as well as the streaking.

Horizontal banding on negatives driving me BANANAS!

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