Horizon Perfekt questions

unwantedfocus · Jul 2, 2021

Hello,

I was thinking about buying a Horizon Perfekt from russia for 160 euros. After going through a couple of reviews I was wondering can you shoot it handheld? The concern is that it would not be possible to shoot street with it. Was going through this thread but nothing popped up. Any other things I should look out for?

best regards

gorbas · Jul 2, 2021

Since 1986 i shoot thousands of rolls thru different models of Horizon/t, all of them handheld and a few of them from the tripod.
Its perfect handheld camera!

4season · Jul 2, 2021

Yes it works very well handheld, but hold the camera carefully lest you photograph your fingers! Optional handle accessory makes it easier to keep your fingers out of the picture.

AgX · Jul 2, 2021

The OP raises a valid question as the time for an exposure run is not stated by KMZ.

Huss · Jul 2, 2021

I shot these hand-held:

Just use the camera. Experiment with it. Don't over-think it.
And see what you get.

tezzasmall · Jul 3, 2021

unwantedfocus said:
Hello,

I was thinking about buying a Horizon Perfekt from russia for 160 euros. After going through a couple of reviews I was wondering can you shoot it handheld?

I got one last year and have only used it once or twice on a tripod, so far, but wondered about hand holding it, like yourself.

I suppose the only way is to run a test film or two through it and see...

And I don't know what the exchange rate is, but I think the two following cameras are less than 160 euros, and one could well have been the seller that I also bought my camera from:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283184701950?hash=item41ef1fa1fe:g:FUsAAOSw0Idgcdiz

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113281486656?hash=item1a601a4f40:g:KKcAAOSwtc9bsObC

Terry S

unwantedfocus · Jul 3, 2021

Thanks for all the replies. Actually I don't see any German seller at the moment and I could get one from russia brand new but it would cost me additional 35 euros for shipping. LINK TO CAMERA EBAY. There are also different models !!! Only the Horizon Perfect, Horizon Sport and the Horizon S3 U-500 have 500th of a sec shutter speeds which would come handy if using it handheld. I will most likely buy it next month but wanted some feedback from people who used it already.

AgX · Jul 3, 2021

[QUOTE="unwantedfocus, post: 2438171, member: 95152" Only the Horizon Perfect, Horizon Sport and the Horizon S3 U-500 have 500th of a sec shutter speeds which would come handy if using it handheld.[/QUOTE]

You did not understood my remark above.
With slit exposing cameras not only the momentarily exposure is of importance, but the whole exposure run. With common focal plane shutters and their typically short run we seem not to bother unless we have it about the synch speed or about very fast moving objects.
With rotary cameras (be it fully rorating or with a swing lens) the run is longer in time. However the examples above show that it is possible to handheld render for instance a straight line straight.

unwantedfocus · Jul 3, 2021

I did understand that, in theory the camera rotates faster with 500th of a sec shutter speed. As Huss also stated it seems to work fine for him. I will give it a try next month and report back.

gorbas · Jul 3, 2021

From my experience, you do not need 1/500 exposure at all, but most likely you will need 1/30. For me, the biggest drawback of Horizon 202 is lack of 1/30.
Recently I bought brand new in box Horizon S3 Pro. It took me 5 or 6 films before it starts to behave "normally". Spacing between frames was between 3 and 13mm. After serious exercising the camera it finally went away. Both edges of the rails scratched film and it needs further treatment. Every single Horizont I had scratched film. One S3 I had, had loose front element. So be ready and flexible to deal with "issues", even when the camera is brand new.
But I will not ever give up on them. They are Wonderful cameras for me!

gorbas · Jul 3, 2021

There are 2 rotation speeds. Speed of drum rotation is constant for all fast and all slow speeds. Exposure time is varied by width of the drum slit.

removed account4 · Jul 3, 2021

Huss said:
Just use the camera. Experiment with it. Don't over-think it.
And see what you get.

words to live by !
thanks !
John

reddesert · Jul 3, 2021

You can shoot it handheld, shutter speed isn't so much the problem, but need to be attentive to perspective. Deviations from level will be very noticeable. Not bad, necessarily, but very noticeable. Also rotating drum makes a distinct sound, it's not a stealth instrument.

I just measured on Horizon 202, width of drum slit is about 6mm for the 1/60 speed. Width of negative is about 56-58mm, so that tells you it will take about 1/6 second for the drum rotation across whole image on fast speeds. Not a big problem. The camera is set up for infinity focus, I modified it by putting label tape on the film rails to bring focus in to about 3 meters / 10 feet (then DOF should cover infinity at f/5.6, but not wide open).

Here is a photo I took about 25 years ago in NYC with the Horizon, flaws and all:

37th St., NYC, 1990s by reddesert64, on Flickr

Mick Fagan · Jul 4, 2021

This is my Horizon 202, which is an excellent camera. I used it extensively on a trip to Germany quite some years ago and have also done some serious landscape work using colour negative film in outback Australia.

The negative size of my camera is 24mm x 56.4mm on the image, the lens is excellent at anything from f/5.6 onwards.

This was done hand held, as many of my walk around stuff with the 202 have been.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/the-washings-up.9085/

Mick.

LuigiMan · Oct 23, 2021

gorbas said:
Both edges of the rails scratched film and it needs further treatment. Every single Horizont I had scratched film.

I am a new member here and new user of Horizon S3 Pro. Great little panocamera, but for me too with some problems. The horizontal scratchs on film, near the lower side of the film. I am interested in this further treatment to resolve this problem.
Thank you
Luigi

Huss · Oct 24, 2021

LuigiMan said:
I am a new member here and new user of Horizon S3 Pro. Great little panocamera, but for me too with some problems. The horizontal scratchs on film, near the lower side of the film. I am interested in this further treatment to resolve this problem.
Thank you
Luigi

My Perfekt also scratched the film. Seems to be a 'feature' of this camera.

LuigiMan · Oct 24, 2021

Huss said:
My Perfekt also scratched the film. Seems to be a 'feature' of this camera.

Thank you. Mine isn't always. I noticed a small rough spot on the bottom rail of the film. This could be the problem with the scratch.

gorbas · Oct 24, 2021

It mostly depends of the film used and the specific camera example you have. Back in the day, with original Agfa APX-100 in first model of Horizont and 202 model I had very little issues. Mostly very faint soft line on the top of the frame in the image area. With Arista Premium 100 (Arista's version of Plus X), FP-4+ and Kentmere 100 I have much more trouble with scratching. Fortunately most of it is just outside image area and very close to perforation. Main issue is difficulty advancing and rewinding film (or film transport thru the camera) and from peel of emulsion dust accumulating in the camera gate.
After applying plastic Dymo tape to film rails film transport is much smoother and close focus capabilities are much better but for infinity focus is necessary to close down at least at f11 if not at f16.
I'm about to now experiment with some other plastic film applied to the rails.
If you completely strip down camera to basic shell it will be possible to better polish film rails because it looks like it was not big priority in KMZ factory.
PS. you can see my results with this camera on my website

LuigiMan · Oct 25, 2021

gorbas said:
It mostly depends of the film used and the specific camera example you have. Back in the day, with original Agfa APX-100 in first model of Horizont and 202 model I had very little issues. Mostly very faint soft line on the top of the frame in the image area. With Arista Premium 100 (Arista's version of Plus X), FP-4+ and Kentmere 100 I have much more trouble with scratching. Fortunately most of it is just outside image area and very close to perforation. Main issue is difficulty advancing and rewinding film (or film transport thru the camera) and from peel of emulsion dust accumulating in the camera gate.
After applying plastic Dymo tape to film rails film transport is much smoother and close focus capabilities are much better but for infinity focus is necessary to close down at least at f11 if not at f16.
I'm about to now experiment with some other plastic film applied to the rails.
If you completely strip down camera to basic shell it will be possible to better polish film rails because it looks like it was not big priority in KMZ factory.
PS. you can see my results with this camera on my website

Thank you and congrats on your website!
Thankfully, I had no problems loading and rewinding the film.
Later I would like to try Dymo tape (the black one?) on the rails (poorly maintained by KMZ).
For now I would like to polish the rails: how can I do it?

gorbas · Oct 25, 2021

Luigi, Thank you!
What film are you using in your Horizon?
I dont have problem loading film but advancing it thru the camera. Sometimes emulsion will just "glue" itself to the rails and I had to stop at ½ or ⅔ of the roll and rewind. Plus X was very prone to it. Never had an issue with Tri-X.
It's way, way better now with black Dymo tape over the rails. No issues at all.
On of my dear friends always joked that Horizonts that way because all are made in USSR Tractor factory #13
Yes, I did try to polish rails with Dremel tool and felt discs tools but access to the rails is very difficult because of the rail curve and surrounding rollers and gears and it created a lot of debris in the film chamber so I stopped afraid that all that junk will end up in camera gears and drum. That is reason way I told you that only right way to polish it is to take camera apart, polish it, clean everything and put it back. Unfortunately it's not job that I can take at all.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2021

gorbas said:
PS. you can see my results with this camera on my website

Very enjoyable and inspiring work!

Huss · Oct 25, 2021

gorbas said:
It mostly depends of the film used and the specific camera example you have. Back in the day, with original Agfa APX-100 in first model of Horizont and 202 model I had very little issues. Mostly very faint soft line on the top of the frame in the image area. With Arista Premium 100 (Arista's version of Plus X), FP-4+ and Kentmere 100 I have much more trouble with scratching. Fortunately most of it is just outside image area and very close to perforation. Main issue is difficulty advancing and rewinding film (or film transport thru the camera) and from peel of emulsion dust accumulating in the camera gate.
After applying plastic Dymo tape to film rails film transport is much smoother and close focus capabilities are much better but for infinity focus is necessary to close down at least at f11 if not at f16.
I'm about to now experiment with some other plastic film applied to the rails.
If you completely strip down camera to basic shell it will be possible to better polish film rails because it looks like it was not big priority in KMZ factory.
PS. you can see my results with this camera on my website

My Horizon 202 did not scratch the film. My Perfekt did.

Huss · Oct 25, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Very enjoyable and inspiring work!

Agreed!

LuigiMan · Oct 25, 2021

Thank you Goran so much for your reply.
I don't think I try the way of rails lubrication, so many dangers... It's better to use black Dymo tape on the rails.
I searched about this hack on web, particularly where to place the Dymo tape, but couldn't find any photos or videos,

MattKing · Oct 25, 2021

Would Teflon tape be even better?

Horizon Perfekt questions

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