Homebrew B&W film processor -- possible?

[philpem]

Hi guys,
This may well be a candidate for one of the weirdest threads on here, but please bear with me

I'm toying with the idea of putting together some form of automatic (or semi-automatic) film processor for B&W film. I've got a Paterson 35 Model II tank at the moment, which is pretty darn nice -- 245ml capacity (though it can be filled to 250ml which makes the math easier when mixing chemistry), and when used with ID11, Ilfostop, Ilford Rapid fixer and Ilfotol wetting agent, cost-per-film ends up at about £1.30.

The problem is, it takes me ~5 minutes to load a film, 15 minutes for the processing (ID11 at 1+1), then 30 seconds stop, about 5 minutes to fix, and a 15 minute wash. Then I've got to deal with drying the film and so forth.

Thing is, I'm lazy by nature... so what I'd like to do is rig something up to do a bit of the menial labour for me. Essentially, a homebrew film processor. At one point Ilford did the FP40 -- a three-bath-plus-wash short-leader processor with replenishment, and Bray made the Midget (which if memory serves was a long-leader processor with no replenisher, basically one-shot for chemistry). There's also the Jobo ATL(?) series rotary processors...

Problem is, all these lovely machines are discontinued, and when they're seen on the second hand market, they're bloody expensive.

I think I know the answer to this question, but... has anyone had a crack at building a homebrew "poor man's film processor"?

I was thinking something along the lines of a short-leader processor based on the Fuji FP300 and 500 design -- a plastic leader is spliced onto the end of the film, then toothed belts and gears on process racks are used to pull the film through the processor. The size of the process racks and speed of the drive motor determines the length of time the film spends in the various solutions -- typically the dev:stop:fix ratio is fixed, but the motor speed is variable. Meaning, you could push-process (add developer time) but your film spends proportionally longer in the fixer and stopbath as well.

The other option would be to take the "Bodge it and Scarper" route -- drill a couple of holes in a Paterson S4 tank, load it manually, then have a system of pumps and drain valves to fill and drain the tank. Problem then is that the film has to be loaded onto a reel, then loaded into the machine in absolute darkness -- the 'fill' hole would have to be on the lid, and the 'drain' hole on the base, unless there was some form of "rotate the tank 180 degrees to drain it" mechanism installed...

Adding some form of dryer would also be handy -- perhaps based on a cheap Argos hair dryer (or two) and a temperature controller. Could even add temperature control for the process chemistry (read: fish tank heaters!)

This is all me thinking out loud... does anyone think this idea is worth pursuing, or is there another commonly-available film processor that goes for very little money and still has reasonable parts availability?
I do electronics work as a hobby so repairing the electronic bits wouldn't be hard; it's just the 'specialised' stuff like pumps, motors, heating elements and filters I'd be worried about.

I'd be interested in the group's thoughts on this idea (I'm expecting a lot of PMs to the effect of "this is nuts!")

-Phil.

 

[jon.oman]

Anything is possible, it just depends on how much you want to spend!

Jon

 

[stillsilver]

Welcome to the site Phil. If you process enough film to warrant a project like this it might be worth pursuing. By enough film I mean 3 or 4 rolls a day 5 or 6 days a week. You have to factor in the cost of the parts to build the processor, and your time to assemble and test the processor.

Processing film is the most boring aspect of photography. While processing I always fantasize about the film fairy coming along, waving her magic wand, and ’poof’ my film is processed, dried, and in the negative sleeves.

Now if you like the challenge of a project like this, then have a go at it. I would attempt the roller method to save time having to load the film onto the reels.

Mike

 

[jp498]

Laziness is indeed a big driver of innovation.

I would think some sort of machine like the first you describe would be more work to clean before and after each use (unless you use it all the time) than the time savings it creates.

The second machine seems reasonable if you have a way to agitate it. Just have some valves to flush everything with clean water before/after use. A possible method of avoiding agitation would be to connect the input and outputs together temporarily with a pump in the middle to circulate the liquid.

As far as me saving time, I process multiple rolls (or sheets) of film at a time. I have both the 500ml and 1.5l paterson tanks, so I can process 1-5 rolls of 35mm, upto 3 rolls of 120, and I have 2 combi plan tanks so I can do upto 12 sheets of film. If you run a second tank five minutes after the first, you still have time do everything and get twice as much done.

If you do one tank at a time, you could have a TV or radio or laptop going to prevent boredom.

As far as drying goes, sometime using a hair dryer causes film to curl too much. Low temp use is sometimes acceptable depending on technique. My negatives get a dip in 70% rubbing alcohol + photoflow as a last step and air dry quicker than water+photoflow.

 

[philpem]

Anything is possible, it just depends on how much you want to spend!

Less than a second-hand Jobo ATL or Bray Midget (£1000-£2000) but more than a box full of Paterson S4 tanks and reels (~£100).

Welcome to the site Phil. If you process enough film to warrant a project like this it might be worth pursuing. By enough film I mean 3 or 4 rolls a day 5 or 6 days a week. You have to factor in the cost of the parts to build the processor, and your time to assemble and test the processor.

True. It's probably going to be fairly large batches (5-6 films) every couple of months, rather than 3-4 films a week.

Processing film is the most boring aspect of photography. While processing I always fantasize about the film fairy coming along, waving her magic wand, and ’poof’ my film is processed, dried, and in the negative sleeves.

If only!
I tend to bring a cheap transistor radio into the "lab" (read: downstairs loo) with me and listen to Radio 2. Not a perfect cure for boredom, but it takes the edge off a little. And the cheeping of the Paterson triple-timer is still loud enough to get my attention even with the radio on...

Now if you like the challenge of a project like this, then have a go at it. I would attempt the roller method to save time having to load the film onto the reels.

That's my current favourite too. Something like a printer paper-feed system would be ideal, because it's mechanically very simple. The problems you tend to get with that are mostly with film-contact -- if there's a mark or scuff on the roller, it transfers onto the film. For bonus points, once it tears a little bit of emulsion off one film, you can get a cascade failure effect -- it tears a bigger chunk off the next film, then a bigger chunk of the film after that and so on...

Short-leader crossover/rack based systems don't suffer from that (only the crossovers contact the film, and they're usually almost-frictionless PTFE). I suspect maintenance will be much simpler than on a C41 processor -- less tanks, and B&W chemistry doesn't seem to be as prone to leaving horrible white stains behind.

I would think some sort of machine like the first you describe would be more work to clean before and after each use (unless you use it all the time) than the time savings it creates.

Do you mean the modified Paterson tank or the rack-and-roller system?
Admittedly R&R systems are a pain to clean (especially C41 ones, I get to say that because I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and have the blix-stains on said T-shirt to prove it!). B&W cleanup should be a case of rinsing the racks and crossovers, then filling the supply tanks with water and hitting the "fill" button to clean the hoses and pumps out.

If it's left in-service, I doubt the chemistry would have a chance to crystallise. Certainly the immersed bits of the rack/rollers would be fine.

The second machine seems reasonable if you have a way to agitate it. Just have some valves to flush everything with clean water before/after use. A possible method of avoiding agitation would be to connect the input and outputs together temporarily with a pump in the middle to circulate the liquid.

The Fuji rack-and-roller machines seem to follow that principle (though the circulation diagrams are eye-wateringly complex). You have two tanks:
- Main tank contains the rack and is used to process the film
- Subtank contains a circulation filter and a heater
The Main and Sub tanks are connected together (the smaller Subtank is mounted on the side of the Main tank), and a pump draws liquid from the bottom of the subtank (through the Circ filter) and up through the bottom of the Main tank. A separate valve under the Main tank allows the system to be drained for cleaning.

As far as me saving time, I process multiple rolls (or sheets) of film at a time. I have both the 500ml and 1.5l paterson tanks, so I can process 1-5 rolls of 35mm, upto 3 rolls of 120, and I have 2 combi plan tanks so I can do upto 12 sheets of film. If you run a second tank five minutes after the first, you still have time do everything and get twice as much done.

Hmm. In that case, a larger Paterson tank, a full reel set and some bigger measuring jugs might be a better option...
The only catch is that each film would have to be developed for exactly the same time, so I couldn't run (say) a roll of Delta 400 and a roll of FP4 at the same time.

As far as drying goes, sometime using a hair dryer causes film to curl too much. Low temp use is sometimes acceptable depending on technique. My negatives get a dip in 70% rubbing alcohol + photoflow as a last step and air dry quicker than water+photoflow.

Hm. Interesting solution -- I've got a few cans of 90% electronics-grade isopropyl alcohol kicking around; mixing one of those down to 70% and adding some Ilfotol wetting agent might be an experiment worth trying.

I did note that it takes about 25 minutes for a squeegee'd roll of HP5 to dry at room temp. Held with weighted film clips and dried with a hair-dryer, it takes about five...

Even a film drier would be a useful tool to get the dev times down, but I'm not about to pay £600-odd for what is effectively a box, a fan, a hair-dryer heating element and a thermostat...

-Phil.

 

[fotch]

Hi Phil, welcome to APUG. Just buy yourself a Polaroid camera and film and be done with it.

 

[philpem]

Hi Phil, welcome to APUG. Just buy yourself a Polaroid camera and film and be done with it.

1) PX600 is expensive (something like £20 for an 8-sheet pack)
2) You can't really do much with the photo once it's been taken
3) I have a box full of 35mm Canon EOS gear. It'll take one heck of an Act of God to make me switch to something else

Also, you can't get infrared Polaroid film -- I just picked up a couple of rolls of SFX200 and an IR filter to play with. Of course, now it's arrived, the weather has changed from "lovely" to "bloomin' awful" :-/

The processor was just an idea -- I'm just thinking out loud...

 

[Athiril]

Bad weather makes the best photos though!

 

[Sim2]

Use Meccano metal pieces to create a dip-and-dunk processor running over two or three deep tanks ending in a car-wash style hot air frenzy from the hair dryers each side of the transport mechanism.

Seriously, avoid rollers like the plague. Used to hate having to clean the rollers on an Ilford print processor - hate to think what a roller could do to a nice, soft emulsion *shudder*.

 

[Shadowtracker]

Lazy? No, you aren't lazy, it's called 'efficient'!

 

[philpem]

Bad weather makes the best photos though!

Only when there's enough light to take a photo without resorting to multiple-second exposures!

 

[philpem]

Use Meccano metal pieces to create a dip-and-dunk processor running over two or three deep tanks ending in a car-wash style hot air frenzy from the hair dryers each side of the transport mechanism

Problem with that is, I'd need a darkroom. Or I'd need to rig up (and program) a linear actuator to lift the film out of the tank and dunk it in the next one. A machine like that would be HUGE.

Seriously, avoid rollers like the plague. Used to hate having to clean the rollers on an Ilford print processor - hate to think what a roller could do to a nice, soft emulsion *shudder*.

I have to clean them every week on the Fuji Frontier 570 printer we've got at work. How those rollers get covered in such a thick layer of black ichor in only a week I have no idea... Also, the drive rollers on the dryer crossover rack? Turns out they're supposed to be red, not black. Who knew? (answer: the folks running the manufacturing line in Japan)

Short-leader seems like a fairly good option though. Tanks can be (theoretically) as big or small as you like, the film only contacts a few short guide rails and not a full set of rubber rollers.

I suppose one way to simplify it might be to make the tanks horizontal instead of vertical, then have guide rails to run the film 'underwater' and lift it back out at the other end. Would still need some way of pulling the leader card through, though...

Lazy? No, you aren't lazy, it's called 'efficient'!

Heh. I think there's a Simpsons mug with that theme -- "Efficiency." on one side, and on the other side a picture of one of those "nodding bird" toys tapping a key on a keyboard.

 

[neelin]

I think my next mechanical project is going to be some kind of "air blade" with film as it comes off a reel fed thru it with filtered air coming out of a slit on both sides of the film, basically wiping it down. RH is really low here, and the film would dry very quickly after that.

The 35mm/120 film might drop/rise into a dust free tube (pvc, etc.) for the last bit of drying, and capped and the next film into an adjacent tube, etc. Still watching for more ideas/materials to appear in front of me

Robert

 

[patrickjames]

I think my next mechanical project is going to be some kind of "air blade" with film as it comes off a reel fed thru it with filtered air coming out of a slit on both sides of the film, basically wiping it down. RH is really low here, and the film would dry very quickly after that.

Robert

Why don't you just adapt one of these?

http://www.dyson.com/dryers/

 

[Andrew K]

I'm lazy - I love Jobo - load and forget until the timer goes off...

You could convert a C41 machine to B&W, but you're talking a fair bit of chemistry per tank..

Look for a old KISS machine - it was basically a series of thanks - you loaded 2 films onto reels, the loaded them onto a arm - the machine then agitated for you, and changed tanks at the end of each cycle..

You could also look for a old King Concepts machine - I remember testing a table top machine years ago - you could load 4 or 6 35mm films into the machine, then put the lid on. The machine had 4 tanks - each held a different chemical which was fed by gravity into the machine..I can't remember how you times each step, but I do remember it worked....I didin't buy one though, as I hated metal processing reels...

I like machine processing as it's consistant.....

 

[ruilourosa]

you can be very inventive!

i suspect as a traditional agitation method you could adapt a windshield wiper in intermitent mode!?!?!?, if you know a bit of electronics you could even adapt one of these things to make an ilford or kodak or semi stand agitation with some kind of a beep in the end of the development

there was a thing that looked like these selling a few years ago
it was expensive...

it´will not be a completely automated process but...

 

[philpem]

I'm lazy - I love Jobo - load and forget until the timer goes off...

Stop it, you're making me jealous

You could convert a C41 machine to B&W, but you're talking a fair bit of chemistry per tank..

Yeah, if I modded a Fuji FP563sc (like we have at work) then I'd probably be looking at rebuilding half the replenisher system, and rejigging the tanks -- P1 and P2 would become the developer, P3-I and P3-II would end up being fix, then P4-I thru P4-III would be the wash tanks. Theoretically doable, but cleaning the machine out well enough to make it work would be "fun". And I suspect it'd involve stripping the machine down to individual parts, Haynes manual style.

Nice way to waste a summer, but not profitable. The tanks are -- if memory serves -- about four litres each.

I like machine processing as it's consistant.....

That's partly what I'm aiming for here -- mostly it's the "efficiency" aspect, but being able to tell the machine to hold at, say, 24C and do all the process control for me would be very attractive.

Would probably need some control strips to calibrate it all, though. Ilford make 'em, but I haven't found anywhere that stocks them.

you can be very inventive!

i suspect as a traditional agitation method you could adapt a windshield wiper in intermitent mode!?!?!?

I actually like the Fuji subtank idea; have a spinning propeller in the bottom that pulls liquid into the subtank, mixes it, passes it by the heater, then back into the main tank.
Problem would be getting a decent watertight seal between the tank and the driveshaft. Although you could always put the heater and driveshaft on the subtank lid, which would mean everything would be above the water-line...

with some kind of a beep in the end of the development

I have something that beeps me at the end of the process, it's called a Paterson Triple Timer. It just doesn't go onto Timer 2 once Timer 1 finishes, you have a rather stiff slide switch to do that. Bit of a pain... :-/

 

[MartinP]

Half a dozen films a month is not worth messing about for direct savings, only for the satisfaction of making the machine perhaps. A dev tank larger than two reels would also potentially save a bit of time, or a deep-tank line but that would need a darkroom and a sink really.

You would probably find the biggest time-saving for minimum effort by making a drying cabinet from the melamine chipboard shelf-plank things you get in diy shops. Make up the sides of the box, a bit of hardboard on the back, a hinged bit of polycarbonate 'glazing' as the front door (use draughtproofing as the door seal) then a computer-fan pulling air out the top. Make the bottom part of the cabinet with lots of vents with airco filter material - or even a biscuit tin with a couple of light-bulbs in for heating.

 

[2F/2F]

Thing is, I'm lazy by nature...

Then you are the perfect candidate to go digital.