Home-mixed Microphen - sulfate?

[lamerko]

Hello,
I want to prepare a home-mixed Microphen as follows:

Package A
Sodium metabisulfite 0.65 g
Hydroquinone 5.00 g
Boric acid 2.80 g
Phenidone 0.20 g

Package B
Sodium tripolyphosphate (or Calgon) 3.40 g
Sodium sulfite (anh.) 100.00 g
Borax 6.80 g
Potassium bromide 1.00 g
!!! Sodium sulfate ?? g !!!

In the original Ilford Microphen I saw that in Package B they add Sodium sulfate. The amount is unknown, but maybe somewhere around 10-12 grams. Does anyone have any idea what they are using it for?
My first guess was that it was like an anti-caking agent. I looked at the ingredients of the other two Ilford powder developers (Perceptol and ID-11) - in the first they did not write it, but in the second surprisingly there is sulfate, but in package A, where the two developing agents are...

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Why not try FX-15? I believe it is better.

 

[john_s]

I'd be inclined to make up the well known ID-68 which is basically Microphen by all accounts. The packaged powders can have some extra preservative like metabisulphite, not needed when mixing from components. I've never seen sulphate listed in a developer of this sort, or any Ilford formula.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Hello,
I want to prepare a home-mixed Microphen as follows:

Package A
Sodium metabisulfite 0.65 g
Hydroquinone 5.00 g
Boric acid 2.80 g
Phenidone 0.20 g

Package B
Sodium tripolyphosphate (or Calgon) 3.40 g
Sodium sulfite (anh.) 100.00 g
Borax 6.80 g
Potassium bromide 1.00 g
!!! Sodium sulfate ?? g !!!

In the original Ilford Microphen I saw that in Package B they add Sodium sulfate. The amount is unknown, but maybe somewhere around 10-12 grams. Does anyone have any idea what they are using it for?
My first guess was that it was like an anti-caking agent. I looked at the ingredients of the other two Ilford powder developers (Perceptol and ID-11) - in the first they did not write it, but in the second surprisingly there is sulfate, but in package A, where the two developing agents are...

Sulfate is also mentioned as being in part B of ID11, but I have no idea of the quantity. Perhaps it is there to help when processing in hot climates. I'm sure someone here will be able to help if that is incorrect.

 

[lamerko]

Why not try FX-15? I believe it is better.

I am not familiar with this developer. Now I looked up some information about it. The formula looks interesting - with three developing agents. I have all the chemicals I need (with the proviso that I replace sodium bisulfite with sodium metabisulfite). It will be interesting for tests, but there seems to be some problem with silver precipitation (I don't know what it means). Unfortunately, there is no reliable database of development times, so there is no way I can use it instead of Microphen.

I'd be inclined to make up the well known ID-68 which is basically Microphen by all accounts. The packaged powders can have some extra preservative like metabisulphite, not needed when mixing from components. I've never seen sulphate listed in a developer of this sort, or any Ilford formula.

The good thing about Microphen is that it has a rich database of times and generally a lot of information. I don't know if ID-68 will cover that base completely - the formula is similar, but I have a small doubt that maybe the pH won't be the same.
Also, I want to make ready mixes like the commercial ones so I don't have to measure every time, which is annoying. That's why I'm interested in what exactly is in Ilford's packaging. I am attaching two photos - one of Microphen pack B and the other of ID-11 pack A - both of which contain sulfate. But in Perceptol it is missing (or simply not noted). Since this chemical is not typical of these developers, I began to wonder what purpose they added it to the developers.

Sulfate is also mentioned as being in part B of ID11, but I have no idea of the quantity. Perhaps it is there to help when processing in hot climates. I'm sure someone here will be able to help if that is incorrect.

Interestingly, the sulfate in ID-11 is in package A, where the two developing agents are…

 

[Anon Ymous]

I don't know if ID-68 will cover that base completely - the formula is similar, but I have a small doubt that maybe the pH won't be the same.

It's been many years since I mixed some ID68, but the pH was within the range reported by Ilford for Microphen.

 

[Rudeofus]

Sodium Sulfate is not listed as "anti caking agent" in the Wikipedia list, so I don't think that this is the reason for having it in Microphen.

It is known as anti-swelling agent for gelatin. This can make Microphen more suitable for poorly hardened film, or it can stretch dev times a bit to improve shadow detail and sharpness.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

I am not familiar with this developer. Now I looked up some information about it. The formula looks interesting - with three developing agents. I have all the chemicals I need (with the proviso that I replace sodium bisulfite with sodium metabisulfite). It will be interesting for tests, but there seems to be some problem with silver precipitation (I don't know what it means). Unfortunately, there is no reliable database of development times, so there is no way I can use it instead of Microphen.

There is a thread on this site about FX-15.

Here:

Acutol S - Crawley's fx15 developer

I've been thinking of trying this developer which used to be known as Paterson's Acutol S. I would have to buy the chemicals and mix it from scratch it appears. Has anyone tried it, any opinions on the pros and cons of it? The Film Developing Cookbook speaks well of it.

www.photrio.com

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Interestingly, the sulfate in ID-11 is in package A, where the two developing agents are…

My mistake, I meant to type part A.
ID11 is an excellent developer.

 

[john_s]

Sodium Sulfate is not listed as "anti caking agent" in the Wikipedia list, so I don't think that this is the reason for having it in Microphen.

It is known as anti-swelling agent for gelatin. This can make Microphen more suitable for poorly hardened film, or it can stretch dev times a bit to improve shadow detail and sharpness.

I'm very curious about sulphate in Microphen. I mix ID-68 according to the well publicised formula. I haven't see sulphate in any formula for a similar developer or MSDS (it's not at all dangerous so its absence from MSDS isn't surprising). Sulphate is well known as an additive for tropical (hot) conditions. Kodak's publication J-1 suggests 50g/L for even a moderately elevated temperature, up to 100g/L for 30degC. I'd like to know:
■ why it's in Microphen packs, and
■ how much, and should I use some? And if so, how much?

Has anyone weighed the Microphen bags' contents?

 

[Rudeofus]

I'm very curious about sulphate in Microphen. I mix ID-68 according to the well publicised formula. I haven't see sulphate in any formula for a similar developer or MSDS (it's not at all dangerous so its absence from MSDS isn't surprising). Sulphate is well known as an additive for tropical (hot) conditions. Kodak's publication J-1 suggests 50g/L for even a moderately elevated temperature, up to 100g/L for 30degC. I'd like to know:
■ why it's in Microphen packs, and
■ how much, and should I use some? And if so, how much?

Has anyone weighed the Microphen bags' contents?

While Phenidone was quickly embraced for its speed boost and easier way to make liquid concentrates, one of its perceived drawbacks was lack of sharpness. Since Phenidone is much less restrained by bromide or iodide, the self-inhibition during development (sort of like DIR couplers, but without the coupling) was much less pronounced, leading to weaker Mackie lines. These are facts.

Now the conclusion is pure conjecture on my side: You can boost sharpness through local exhaustion effects, either if your developer is very dilute, or if you somehow restrict diffusion. The latter could be achieved with an anti swelling agent.

I have no data to back this up, but the dots do line up, and it's the only plausible (to me at least) explanation for sulfate in Microphen, which IIRC was one of the earlier PQ type developers.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Unless the ambient temperatures are particularly high, I don't see the need to add sulphate to a scratch mixed developer. The developer should work fine without it.

 

[Ian Grant]

If you want to mix Microphen then just mix Iford ID-68.

Ian

 

[john_s]

If you want to mix Microphen then just mix Iford ID-68.

Ian

That's what I do, but wondering if adding sulphate would make a difference. I would try it, but I have no idea how much would be appropriate. I don't need it for high temperature. I will buy a pack of Microphen and weigh the two packets.

 

[Ian Grant]

Microphen does not contain Sodium Sulphate. It's only used in tropical developers which aren't made now now as films are way better ore-hardened.

Ian

 

[lamerko]

I don't think the sulfate there is for high temperature. Developer formulas in tropical conditions require large amounts of sulfate, while with Microphen the amount (perhaps) is somewhere around 12 grams. The total weight (of both packages) is 132 g net (I haven't measured them, but that's what it says on the box). Now the more interesting thing - from an older photo from the Internet, the box says 120 g net. The difference is 12 grams, same as the formula in the first post I gave.

Microphen do2s not contain Sodium Sulphate. It's only used in tropical developers which aren't made now now as films are way better ore-hardened.

Ian

Ian, look at the attachments in post #5 - sulfate is in Microphen and ID-11.

 

[Ian Grant]

The Sulphate isn't needed, neither is the Sodium Metabisulpite in Part A. Some adjuncts are added to pre-packaged developers as preservatives etc.

Ian

 

[john_s]

Thanks Ian, I understand the metabisulphite as a preservative, but I'm curious about the sodium sulphate which seems to be a recent change.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Interestingly, the sulfate in ID-11 is in package A, where the two developing agents are…

The thought of sulfate in part A of ID11 has been gnawing away in my mind for a while and I wonder if it's a printing error by Ilford and that the component is actually sodium metabisulpite. That seems to make more sense.

It wouldn't be the first time that Ilford mistakenly printed the wrong component. They once listed sodium bromide as being in part B of Perceptol when in actual fact it's sodium chloride.
I could be wrong of course, but just a thought.

 

[koraks]

I wonder if it's a printing error by Ilford and that the component is actually sodium metabisulpite.

Don't think so. I might have bought the odds of a typo in just 'sulfate', but they also provide the correct CAS for sodium sulfate.

The main issue is that we don't know how much is in there. If it's present in significant quantities, it's functional as part of the developer. But we don't actually know this is the case.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Don't think so. I might have bought the odds of a typo in just 'sulfate', but they also provide the correct CAS for sodium sulfate.

The main issue is that we don't know how much is in there. If it's present in significant quantities, it's functional as part of the developer. But we don't actually know this is the case.

They might have had the correct CAS number for sodium bromide too, but I'm not sure. I wouldn't rule out that sodium metabisulpite is used instead of sulfate.
Perhaps an Ilford representative will clarify for us if they see this thread.

 

[koraks]

Perhaps an Ilford representative will clarify for us if they see this thread.

That would be neat, but they haven't responded in a while. I'll tag them: @Ilford Photo @Harman Tech Service

Anyway, my bet is that its mention is correct and the stuff is just there, in a relatively minor amount, as an anti-caking agent so that the developer pours nicely out of the bag once you open it for mixing in water.

 

[john_s]

Sodium sulfate is mentioned in a current MSDS, not in the first main part where chemicals of some concern are listed, but in a new section later in the document headed "Inventories"

This is from the Canadian MSDS for Part_B:
Inventories
Canada – DSL/NDSL
Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Sulfate
Disodium Tetraborate decahydrate
Sodium Tripolyphosphate
Potassium Bromide

and for Part_A, just for interest:
Inventories
Canada – DSL/NDSL
HYDROQUINONE
SODIUM METABISULPHITE
Boric Acid
1-PHENYL-3-PYRAZOLIDONE

MSDS docs vary according to the local regulations. There was a time when Australian ones showed ingredients that weren't in other English language versions, especially the Agfa ones, back in the early 2000s.

 

[Pixophrenic]

I am not sure if it helps, but I recall having this conversation with one of the active members of this forum several years ago. I also recall contacting Ilford about this and getting a rather obscure answer, amounting to a statement that sulfate was a way to lower the effective concentration of another component "for regulatory reasons". Also, there is at least one other developer with a small amount of sodium sulfate in it, and that is ORWO 829, the first developer in their official reversal process (as of 1964). From a general point, sulfate is progessively formed in a used developer through ongoing oxidation of sulfite, so perhaps Ilford found that adding some sulfate slows this process down, but it is only a guess.

An unrelated guess is that actually a batch-specific amount of sodium bisulfate is added as a pH adjuster to a specific batch of sulfite, which reacts with carbonate (a common impurity) and effectively turns into sulfate.