Home made devs essential ??(and D23!)

Keith Tapscott. · Apr 21, 2006

lowellh said:
In my opinion, the fun of photography is supposed to be in the ART! not the stress of looking for fresh raw materials, keeping them on the shelf, properly measuring and mixing them and then trying to deal with the "rocks and fines" that don't go into solution. I think those things are better left to the "professionals;" OBW, we make chemistry with the best science and raw materials available. I will provide samples.Contact me at askus@claytonchem.com

Perhaps you`re right, but you still haven`t replied to the e-mail I sent you last week concerning Clayton products.

Keith Tapscott. · Apr 21, 2006

Tom Stanworth said:
The most fun of all comes from not completely screwing up images of a lifetime ( such as my unrepeatable experiences here in Afgghanistan). The screwing up bit is all to easily achieved if chopping and changing all the time becos you dont have a constant exposure and developent plan which is what I am trying to nail here.

Tom

Exactly, why I have stuck with FP4 and HP5 and D-76 for so long, nothing magical about this combination but I have got to know them well and get good consistent results each time I use them.

gainer · Apr 21, 2006

Paddy said:
Besides Patrick's support for D-23, I was also intrigued by the D-23 "Total Development" comments of Jim Noel found on the current "Stand & Semi-stand" thread. I'm wondering if the "ripe vat" approach is viable and/or practicable for a home user, and if so what kind of minimum liquid volume would be needed.

In spite of appearances, every modification I have made of a developer has been done as the result of a hypothesis.

I was intrigued many years ago by the specs for ANSCO Hyfinol developer that said a quart of working solution could do 25 rolls of film without increase of developing time or replenishment. I did not know what was in it, but phenidone was first being used about the time, and a book that was in the NASA Langley library claimed phenidone was not very sensitive to bromide. A certain concentration of phenidone could activate a certain amount of hydroquinone. What would adding more than that amount of hydroquinone do? I figured that the excess would act as a replenisher. The bromide build up should not have a great effect on activity. So I made my own with a little (0.1 grams/liter) phenidone, 100 grams of sulfite/liter, and 10 or more grams of hydroquinone. I used and reused this liter for many rolls of film without noticeable loss of quality. Out of that batch I made many photos of guest artists during rehearsals from my seat as first oboist of the Norfolk Symphony of Virginia. It never failed me. This was about as close to a "ripr vat" developer as I have used. Nowadays I would substitute sodium ascorbate for the hydroquinone. As you see, it was modeled after D-23, but I think the combination of phenidone and hydroquinone was a little better for the purpose than metol alone.

Lachlan Young · Apr 21, 2006

gainer said:
I was intrigued many years ago by the specs for ANSCO Hyfinol developer that said a quart of working solution could do 25 rolls of film without increase of developing time or replenishment. I did not know what was in it, but phenidone was first being used about the time, and a book that was in the NASA Langley library claimed phenidone was not very sensitive to bromide. A certain concentration of phenidone could activate a certain amount of hydroquinone. What would adding more than that amount of hydroquinone do? I figured that the excess would act as a replenisher. The bromide build up should not have a great effect on activity. So I made my own with a little (0.1 grams/liter) phenidone, 100 grams of sulfite/liter, and 10 or more grams of hydroquinone. I used and reused this liter for many rolls of film without noticeable loss of quality. Out of that batch I made many photos of guest artists during rehearsals from my seat as first oboist of the Norfolk Symphony of Virginia. It never failed me. This was about as close to a "ripr vat" developer as I have used. Nowadays I would substitute sodium ascorbate for the hydroquinone. As you see, it was modeled after D-23, but I think the combination of phenidone and hydroquinone was a little better for the purpose than metol alone.

What sort of development times were you getting? Also, what was the total volume of the stock solution you were using?

All help much appreciated,

Lachlan

Tom Stanworth · Apr 22, 2006

D23 is so simple and sounds somewhat similar to perceptol. What else does perceptol have in it that D23 does not and what difference does this make. Are the two similar in results?

Tom

Tom Hoskinson · Apr 22, 2006

Besides Metol and Sodium Sulfite, Perceptol may have a water softener (like an EDTA) and perhaps a bit of sodium chloride. In other words, not very different from D23.

gainer · Apr 22, 2006

Lachlan Young said:
What sort of development times were you getting? Also, what was the total volume of the stock solution you were using?

All help much appreciated,

Lachlan

Try 8 minutes at 68 F to start. The stock WAS the working solution. 250 ml would easily do a roll. You could keep a separate container of unused developer for replacement of lost volume. I usually pitched it when it got to looking too bad. Reused high-sulfite developers accumulate a black sediment that looks worse than it is.
You may remember that those who used this method would keep about 1/4 of the old batch to "season" the new. Developing was more of a black art than a scientific process. It still is, but we like to pretend otherwise by making precisely computed measurements according to algorithms we little understand. But we still have to say to ourselves, if not to those we tell about it later, "I wonder how it will come out."

BradS · Apr 22, 2006

Committed....

Well, you guys finally did it. You've infected me. I went to the Formulary and bought a pound each of: Metol, Sodium Sulphite and Sodium Carbonate last night. My wife's got a box of 20 mule team in the laundry room...I''ve still got a bottle of HC-110 on reserve but, I think I'm on my way.

John Bartley · Apr 22, 2006

BradS said:
WOW! No scales...and, a compensating dev that tames TMAX-100.

And if you think "that" makes life easy, wait til you find out that you can mix it today, use it for ??? (months) and only throw it out because you can't stand the look of it anymore .... it still works fine though ...

and ..

fresh D23 is a very useable paper developer.

Tom Stanworth · Apr 22, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Besides Metol and Sodium Sulfite, Perceptol may have a water softener (like an EDTA) and perhaps a bit of sodium chloride. In other words, not very different from D23.

Thats encouraging as perceptol 1+1 aint bad at all. I have heard some say that D23 is soft working ie not very good for developing negs to high contrast. Is this true? Are there any agents added to perceptol to increase its energy. I am asking as I have used perceptol and considering how simple d23 is, it sounds like a must try. Is acutance comparable to perceptol ie mushy undiluted, fari at 1+1 and getting crisp at 1:2 etc. Can D23 be used at 1+2, 1+3 etc?

gainer · Apr 22, 2006

If you decide to try adding salt to D-23, add a bunch if you hope to see any results, and make sure it is not iodized. Morton's canning salt is good. Kosher salt does not mean that it must be pure sodium chloride, by the way. Natural salt that could be certified as Kosher may, from what I understand, have elements that might be impure for photography but perfectly good for human consumption and for those religious ceremonies requiring salt.

I tested the addition of salt and some other things once for P. T. magazine in an article "Salt to Taste". 50 or 100 grams per liter made some difference.

The reputation of metol for soft working is misleading. D-23 and some others have a short induction period and you see shadows first when doing DBI. If you want more contrast sooner, add some borax and maybe some hydroquinone. Then you approach D-76. Otherwise, you must wait a while for the contrast to build.

Tom Hoskinson · Apr 22, 2006

Tom Stanworth said:
Can D23 be used at 1+2, 1+3 etc?

Yes, you can use D23 undiluted and at 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, etc. as well.

sanking · Apr 22, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Yes, you can use D23 undiluted and at 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, etc. as well.

D23 is a fine developer, as is D76, but I really prefer for convenience developers such as PMK, Pyrocat-HD, Rodinal and HC-110 that are stored in long-lasting stock solutions and diluted 1:50 to 1:200 for use. In the past I used both D23 and D76, and it seems that I was always in one of two situations: 1) I was out of developer and needed to mix some for the current developing session, or 2) I had some of the developer but it was old and of dubious working quality.

With developers like the ones mentioned above the stock solutions last for a very, very long time, and mixing the working solution is easy as eating pie. This makes them really, really convenient to use in my book.

Sandy

BradS · Apr 22, 2006

sanking said:
D23 is a fine developer, as is D76, but I really prefer for convenience developers such as PMK, Pyrocat-HD, Rodinal and HC-110 that are stored in long-lasting stock solutions and diluted 1:50 to 1:200 for use. In the past I used both D23 and D76, and it seems that I was always in one of two situations: 1) I was out of developer and needed to mix some for the current developing session, or 2) I had some of the developer but it was old and of dubious working quality.

With developers like the ones mentioned above the stock solutions last for a very, very long time, and mixing the working solution is easy as eating pie. This makes them really, really convenient to use in my book.

Sandy

This is exactly why I love HC-110 and will likely not ever give it up. D23 is atractive because, it is so cheap and appears to exhibit some compensating effects. Perhaps, it is cheap enough to use one shot - especially when diluted.

Tom Stanworth · Apr 22, 2006

Any idea how long d23 stock lasts? Similar deal to D76 ie best used within a few weeks?

dancqu · Apr 23, 2006

Tom Stanworth said:
Any idea how long d23 stock lasts?

All depends on how you store it. Upwards of a year or
more the way I store. But then I use glass Boston Rounds
with a cork-in-a-screw-cap Polyseal or Polycone brand caps.
Were I to compound a liter it would be split into 4, 1/4
liter bottles.

Further splits from there are made then used one shot.
My D-23 is an 8-80; 8 grams metol and 80 grams sulfite.
Split a 1/4 to 1/8 then put a roll through. A 1/16 split
should still have enough chemistry for a roll. Allow
plenty of time though. Dan

john_s · Apr 24, 2006

lowellh said:
In my opinion, the fun of photography is supposed to be in the ART! not the stress of looking for fresh raw materials, keeping them on the shelf, properly measuring and mixing them and then trying to deal with the "rocks and fines" that don't go into solution. I think those things are better left to the "professionals;" OBW, we make chemistry with the best science and raw materials available. I will provide samples.Contact me at askus@claytonchem.com

Well, Lowell, in the country in which i live noone has heard of your chemicals. I have had a few favourite films and chemicals disappear from the market. I can't make film, but at least I can mix up some developers, toners and intensifiers that are really state of the art, and are "better than money can buy" as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention cheaper despite being made of components quite a lot more pure than many "photographic quality" chemicals. I'm confident that that no tin pot marketer or merchant banker can stop me making Pyrocat-HD, ID-78 or VMI and a few others.

Nick Zentena · Apr 24, 2006

Tom Stanworth said:
Any idea how long d23 stock lasts? Similar deal to D76 ie best used within a few weeks?

Why make stock? It's so simple to make it up in final solution form that I just make it fresh when I need it.

If you're using a dilute [not stock] for developing it's also easier to mix since you're putting less chemicals into each litre of water.

gainer · Apr 24, 2006

john_s said:
Well, Lowell, in the country in which i live noone has heard of your chemicals. I have had a few favourite films and chemicals disappear from the market. I can't make film, but at least I can mix up some developers, toners and intensifiers that are really state of the art, and are "better than money can buy" as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention cheaper despite being made of components quite a lot more pure than many "photographic quality" chemicals. I'm confident that that no tin pot marketer or merchant banker can stop me making Pyrocat-HD, ID-78 or VMI and a few others.

Indeed. We can do a lot of tricks with Tylenol, Vitamin C and laundry detergents.

Home made devs essential ??(and D23!)

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