Home made D-23...what's the down side?

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BradS

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Assuming that Sodium Sulfite can be had for around $1.50 a pound and Metol for $36 per pound, a liter of fresh D-23 costs about a dollar. The stuff is cheap enough to use the straight solution as a one shot. The results are "pretty darned good" - good enough to make me take a second look at HP5 (I had dismissed HP5 after trying several rolls in my standard dev, HC-110).

So, what's the down side? It seems to me to be a "best kept secret". Am I missing something?
 

Nick Zentena

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1) You have to mix it yourself

2) It's more expensive then some other formulas.

$36 a pound for Metol? It's less then $30 from JDfotochem.
 

roteague

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BradS said:
So, what's the down side? It seems to me to be a "best kept secret". Am I missing something?

Yes, you can't develop Fuji Velvia very well in it :tongue:
 
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BradS

BradS

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roteague said:
Yes, you can't develop Fuji Velvia very well in it :tongue:

Ah, yes. I missed that one. Probably doesn't work so good for Provia either...

:smile:
 

ZorkiKat

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D23 is so simple- 2 chemicals and just add water. As a developer it's quite versatile. Mainstream emulsions develop well in it (excluding of course the chrome emulsions quoted by the gentlemen above :D). It makes well-graded negatives with tame highlights. You can dilute it for higher accutance. it's one of those 'win-win' situations.

Jay
 

John Bartley

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BradS said:
Assuming that Sodium Sulfite can be had for around $1.50 a pound and Metol for $36 per pound, a liter of fresh D-23 costs about a dollar. The stuff is cheap enough to use the straight solution as a one shot.

Down side?

Yes, you can use it as a "one shot", but if you're like me (cheap), then you'll soon find out that it lasts ...... and lasts ..... and lasts ... and if you pick up a box of Borax at the grocery store, then you have a two bath developer to boot.

What down side ... :smile: ?
 

Joe Lipka

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Used it for years as a two bath type developer. Upside - inexpensive. Downside - you actually have to weigh it out. Unless you figure out how to get from grams to teaspoons. I'm sure someone has that somewhere.
 

ZorkiKat

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Joe Lipka said:
Used it for years as a two bath type developer. Upside - inexpensive. Downside - you actually have to weigh it out. Unless you figure out how to get from grams to teaspoons. I'm sure someone has that somewhere.

One 'variant' (because it doesn't follow the exact measurements?) for D23 published in an American photography magazine in the 1980s was listed with the measurements given in teaspoons and tablespoons. 1 tablespoon(ful) of sodium sulphite is approximately 20 grammes.

Jay
 

Gerald Koch

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If you will be using D-23 as a one shot you might be interested in a similar developer D-76H since it is a bit more economical as it uses a third as much Metol. The formula is the same as for D-76 but without the hydroquinone. BTW, the purpose of the hydroquinone is to regenerate the Metol in a replenished system. For a one shot developer it's not needed.

Distilled water (50°C) ................................. 750 ml
Metol ...................................................... 2.5 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ................................. 100 g
Borax ...................................................... 2.0 g
Distilled water to make ............................... 1.0 l

Twenty Mule Team Borax is fine to use, it is found in most supermarkets in the detergent isle. As a plus development times are the same as for D-76 in all dilutions. It's sometime hard to find times for certain films in D-23.
 

srs5694

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Wigwam Jones said:
If it it that you like D-23, then great. If it is that you're looking for low cost...

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Developers/Cost/cost.html

Those figures don't agree with mine, for two (or possibly three) reasons:

  • The price survey is six years out of date. In that time, prices have changed, particularly for the packaged commercial chemistry. For instance, the site you reference lists Kodak D-76 at $4.25 for a gallon, but the current B&H price is $5.49 for a gallon.
  • The price survey assumes you buy raw chemicals from Photographer's Formulary. Although PF has an excellent selection, they aren't the place to go if your goal is cost savings. For that, other suppliers (Art Craft, Digital Truth, The Chemistry Store, and even your local supermarket) are better choices, at least for the common items (metol, sodium sulfite, etc.).
  • The price survey doesn't include shipping. I'm not sure how significant a factor this is, though.

A little over a year ago, I put together my own price spreadsheet. If you're interested, you can download it from here:

http://www.rodsbooks.com/formulas.zip

It's in OpenOffice.org format with an exported Excel file, so just about anybody should be able to open it in one format or another. Be aware it's a perpetual "work in progress," and some of its prices are now a year or more old. A few samples from my costs, for developing a single roll of film in 250ml of solution (developer only; add more for fixer, etc.):

Ilford ID-11 1+1: $0.27
Kodak D-76 1+1: $0.25
Arista A-76 1+1: $0.23
Home-made D-76 1+1: $0.12
Home-made D-23 1+1: $0.10
Kodak XTOL 1+1: $0.27
Home-made Mytol 1+1: $0.10
Home-made DS-10 1+1: $0.12
Home-made DS-12 2+1: $0.04
PC-TEA 1+50: $0.08
Agfa Rodinal 1+50: $0.37
Home-made Rodinal 1+50: $0.06-$0.10, depending on formula
Home-made Parodinal 1+50: $0.03
Home-made Hypercat 1+1+100: $0.04

As you can see, there are cost savings to using home-made formulas, at least when you're willing to shop for the best price on raw chemistry. OTOH, whether saving $0.20 or so per roll is important to you is another matter. Also, these cost savings are greatest for film developers; they're very slim for paper developers (at least, assuming similar capacity for all developers), and they tend to reverse for fixers.
 

waynecrider

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From what i'm reading in the FDC (Film Developing Cookbook), they mention the possibility of a white scum of calcium when processing in a high sulfite, low alkalinity developer such as D23 or D25. An acid stop bath will remove it.

The FDC also mentions that is is a low contrast developer when diluted or used as a two bath developer. (any remarks guys?) There is mention that underdevelopment will cause it to act as a low contrast developer, in which case a longer D time will find it to work like D76.
 
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When I tried D23, I saw about 1/2 the film speed that I got with Xtol. Hence, make sure to do an EI test. Gerald's D76H suggestion is a very good one.
 

Nick Zentena

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I have no problem getting normal contrast with D-23 at 1:3. It just takes longer times. I get the impression that people aren't developing long enough with diluted D-23 and then claiming low contrast.
 

gainer

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2 teaspoons of metol, 4 tablespoons of sodium sulfite and a quart of water.

10 ml of metol, 60 ml of sodium sulfite and a liter of water.

An ounce (Av.) of metol, a pound of sulfite and a gallon of water.

They all work. If you didn't have anything better, you'd think it was pretty darned good.
 

gainer

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Gerald Koch said:
If you will be using D-23 as a one shot you might be interested in a similar developer D-76H since it is a bit more economical as it uses a third as much Metol. The formula is the same as for D-76 but without the hydroquinone. BTW, the purpose of the hydroquinone is to regenerate the Metol in a replenished system. For a one shot developer it's not needed.

Distilled water (50°C) ................................. 750 ml
Metol ...................................................... 2.5 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ................................. 100 g
Borax ...................................................... 2.0 g
Distilled water to make ............................... 1.0 l

Twenty Mule Team Borax is fine to use, it is found in most supermarkets in the detergent isle. As a plus development times are the same as for D-76 in all dilutions. It's sometime hard to find times for certain films in D-23.
I hear this theory a lot, but it is also possible that the metol is much like a catalyst that makes the hydroquinone work. We are pretty sure that is the way phenidone and Q work together. Cutting out the Q from a PQ developer leaves you with practically no developer. Since hydroquinone is usually about half the price of metol by weight, it might be worth a try to cut the metol to 1 gram and increase the Q to 10. I think I will go try it in my dungeon.
 

Saganich

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I used 7.5 g Metol to 100 g Sulfite in a 1:1 dilution and straight. The straight solution at 1:1 my N development time was 17 minutes at 22C for FP4@125 with no loss of film speed. For EFKE 100R at 1:0 I reached the same density/contrast at 10 minutes with no loss of film speed. Mind I'm a light agitator. The interesting part is the midtones at full developement are a stop or more brighter then you would expect and there is some interesting local contrast effects. Here is an example or two. The more I look back at these the more I want to mix some up!
http://www.imagebrooklyn.com/street_pages_2003/bs102.htm
http://www.imagebrooklyn.com/street_pages_2003/bs031.htm
http://www.imagebrooklyn.com/paw_2003/paw17.htm

Chris
 

Gerald Koch

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I hear this theory a lot, but it is also possible that the metol is much like a catalyst that makes the hydroquinone work. We are pretty sure that is the way phenidone and Q work together.

The concepts of a catalysis and super-additivity are being scrambled here.

I'm not going to go into a discussion here of each concept as they can be found in any good photochemistry book. However I will point out the following. Look at the composition of a typical MQ developer such as D-76 and its replenisher. If Metol were merely a catalyst the amount of Metol in the replenisher would be very small. Remember if it were a catalyst it should not be used up. What we find is that they are in the same ratio in the replenisher as in the developer. It is obvious that they are both contributing to development and BOTH being used up (not catalyst behavior). The same thing is found for a PQ developer but it is a little less obvious since Phenidone is more easily (and more efficiently) regenerated by hydroquinone than is Metol. The small amount of Phenidone in relation to hydroquinone may give the semblance of catalysis but that is NOT the case.
 

ZorkiKat

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Nick Zentena said:
I have no problem getting normal contrast with D-23 at 1:3. It just takes longer times. I get the impression that people aren't developing long enough with diluted D-23 and then claiming low contrast.


Never lost emulsion speed in D23 when I used it. Time is indeed the factor here. Metol is slow acting. Isn't metol responsible for 'speed' whilst hydroquinone is for density in the superadditive setup?

Jay
 

gainer

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Gerald Koch said:
The concepts of a catalysis and super-additivity are being scrambled here.

I'm not going to go into a discussion here of each concept as they can be found in any good photochemistry book. However I will point out the following. Look at the composition of a typical MQ developer such as D-76 and its replenisher. If Metol were merely a catalyst the amount of Metol in the replenisher would be very small. Remember if it were a catalyst it should not be used up. What we find is that they are in the same ratio in the replenisher as in the developer. It is obvious that they are both contributing to development and BOTH being used up (not catalyst behavior). The same thing is found for a PQ developer but it is a little less obvious since Phenidone is more easily (and more efficiently) regenerated by hydroquinone than is Metol. The small amount of Phenidone in relation to hydroquinone may give the semblance of catalysis but that is NOT the case.
I am not confused. Before I made any such weird assertion, I looked up the definition of catalytic agent in the CRC Handbook:
"A substance which by its mere presence alters the velocity of a reaction, and may be recovered unaltered in nature or amount at the end of the reaction." Given that definition, how could we tell by appearances that the action of metol or phenidone on the reduction of silver halide by hydroquinone is not catalytic? Because someone told us?

The replenishment of D-76 is usually in the amount required to replace the volume lost. When that is the case, it is clear that neither the hydroquinone nor the metol is lost due to oxidation, or else both are equally lost, if the ratios are the same in replenisher as in the stock. The rule at one time was to put a certain volume of replenisher per unit of film area in the container and add the used developer until the original volume was regained, discarding the rest. This rule often led to increased developer activity with use. The replenisher, in addition to the same ratio of metol/hydroquinone, has a higher concentration of alkali.

My statement was not, or at least was not intended to be, that the process IS catalysis, but that it must be in some way similar, and not simply a replenishment of one agent by the other. I base this idea on my experience with a PQ developer that had only phenidone, hydroquinone and sulfite in its water, the hydroquinone being in fairly great excess of what was considered to be the "optimum" amount for superadditivity. This developer was reused without replenishment until I could no longer stand its color and sludge, with no apparent loss of activity.

Anyone who did not know that phenidone is a developing agent, upon seeing the effect that adding a minute amount of it to a solution of hydroquinone and sulfite, would, I think, suspect some form of catalysis. I think the catalysis that is present is well known to be the effect of metallic silver. What appears to me to be catalysis may well be the ability of the metol or phenidone to reduce these atoms of silver halides to metallic silver.

I have read that the replenishing action of hydroquinone on metol or phenidone is not sufficient to explain the synergism.

Hydroquinone alone at high enough pH is a very active developer. Why is it so unlikely that the catalytic action of metallic silver particles produced by the metol or phenidone, which are able to act at low pH, could stimulate the activity of the hydroquinone as does high pH or high temperature?
 

dancqu

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gainer said:
...how could we tell by appearances that the action
of metol or phenidone on the reduction of silver halide
by hydroquinone is not catalytic?

Hydroquinone alone at high enough pH is a very active
developer. Why is it so unlikely that the catalytic action of
metallic silver particles produced by the metol or phenidone,
which are able to act at low pH, could stimulate the
activity of the hydroquinone as does high pH
or high temperature?

Very interesting yours and Mr. Koch's batting it back
and forth. I've been trying to understand the reason for
the increase in contrast with each succeeding Beer's in his
1 to 7 series of contrast control developers. As the series
progresses the ratio of hydroquinone to metol increases.
His 7 is 7:1 in favor of HQ. An increase in activity I'd
expect. How though could regeneration alone
explain the increase in contrast? Dan
 

Gerald Koch

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In a replenished system consisting of two developing agents; a primary agent A and a secondary agent B, if A were acting the part of a catalyst then the amount of A in the replenisher solution would only have to be enough to replace that lost by actual physical loss of developer volume. However, this is never the case and the amount of A required is always greater because there is a chemical loss in addition to the physical loss. A is being used up therefore it is not acting as a catalyst. That was my reason for contrasting D-76 and its replenisher D-76R.

While there may be a superficial resemblence to catalysis there is no true catalytic mechanism occuring in superadditive developers and it is best not to think of development in that manner as it leads to incorrect conclusions.

My one consistant observation of this list and other similar ones is that people do not read posts carefully and all sorts of curious ideas get started. Once started they take on an independent life of their own to the detriment of understanding.
 

KenR

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Home made developers

I've been making up D-76 equivalents as listed in The Film Developing Cookbook for some years. With the demise of camera stores (as noted in other postings) I found that I could not get fresh developers without ordering by internet or telephone from one of the big guys, who due to my lack of forethought, could not have material in my home in the course of several hours. With materials from Photographers Formulary, I have fresh developer, 24-7, even on nights and weekends.
I have used the spoon equivalents listed by Anchell & Troop and believe that I get results that are the same as the "store bought" developers. In addition, this has enabled me to try varients such as Vestal's divided D-76 that have worked quite well for mixed film batches and as contrast tamers.
While it takes a few extra minutes, the results are well worth the trouble.
 

nworth

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ZorkiKat said:
Never lost emulsion speed in D23 when I used it. Time is indeed the factor here. Metol is slow acting. Isn't metol responsible for 'speed' whilst hydroquinone is for density in the superadditive setup?

Jay

You are right. You must allow this developer sufficient time. Times for D-23 are much lonnger than for D-76. Even so, I've found that many films lose about 1/3 stop in speed.

The original question was about the downsides to D-23. This is what we've go so far:

1. You have to mix it yourself, which is troublesome.
2. It takes a long time to develop film in it.
3. You may lose some film speed (or maybe not).
I'll add:
4. It give a very distinctive looking negative that may not always fit your needs. (It is semi-compensating, and sometimes that becomes quite apparent. Local contrasts can become a little funny. Usually it works fine, and often the local contrast effects are more a blessing than a curse.)

Balance this against the upsides:

1. It's easy.
2. It's cheap.
3. It's reliable.
4. It's vesatile. You can use it with most any film, and you can tune it by varying the dilution to give the grain vs. sharpness and compensation effects you want.
5. It's semicompensating or compensating, depending on the dilution, which makes developing and printing roll film much easier. (It also allows deep contractions with sheet film when used at 1+3 to 1+5 dilutions.)
6. It lasts a long time. You can even replenish it.
 
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