• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Home brew wash aid.

markbau

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
869
Location
Australia
Format
Analog
Recently I've come across two formulae for wash aid. One involves putting a heaped teaspoon of Sodium Sulphite in one litre of water. The other, recommended by ADOX is a 1 % sodium carbonate solution. (Can anyone tell me how much sodium carbonate that would be in one litre?) Has anyone used either of these as a wash aid and then done a residual hypo test?
 
1% solution = 10g of solid within 1Liter of final solution

Thus you have to dissolve 10g and then fill-up until the volume of the solution reaches 1 Liter

At just 1% you just could dissolve 10g within 1Liter. Hower, often dissolving within a smaller starting volume is more practical (stirring) anyway. And you will have to measure for 1Liter in both cases.
 
I use both Kodak HCA at 1+4 and 1% sulfite for hypo clearing solution, depending on which one is handy. I have not done any tests. 4-5 min in a solution, which follows 20-30 mins in a washer.
 
I use a self-made 2% solution of sodium sulfite(20g/liter of water)with 1g sodium hexametaphosphate(Calgon) and it passed my residual hypo test.
 
RalphLambrecht said:
I use a self-made 2% solution of sodium sulfite(20g/liter of water)with 1g sodium hexametaphosphate(Calgon) and it passed my residual hypo test.
Click to expand...

Calgon is no longer Sodium hexametaphosphate so should not be used. In fact the ingredients of Calgon can differ quite a bit but it's definitely not suitable for Wash Aid.

Ian
 
i would not use sodium carbonate... it will soften your emulsion without need...

you can use also the same amount of sodium chloride... a heaped table spoon to a liter of H2O...
 
ruilourosa said:
i would not use sodium carbonate... it will soften your emulsion without need...

you can use also the same amount of sodium chloride... a heaped table spoon to a liter of H2O...
Click to expand...

Sodium Carbonate works fine, it's been recommended by Agfa for many years, and now Adox. Softening isn't an issue at the recommended atrength.

Ian
 
I've used Sodium Carbonate (washing soda = sold cheaply in lots of places!) since the 1970's with no problems with softening the emulsion on any of my FB prints.

I've haven't done any residual tests but 40 odd years later the prints still look fine!

Terry S
 
From an old test on the washing aid, it appears that sodium sulphite is the most effective, followed by baking soda and sodium citrate. Sodium chloride is the least effective in the list of 9 products.
 
+1 to that. Use Sodium Sulfite if you really need an HCA.
 
Thanks to all that replied, looks like Sodium Sulphite it is. That was the recommendation from the landmark article "Mysteries of the Vortex" in an old D&CCT.
 
I use Kodak HCA. But it can be difficult. Dry sodium sulfite anhydrous will keep for decades in a sealed bottle. Aqueous solutions of stock HCA need to be kept in full bottles to keep fresh. The gallon of Kodak HCA stock solution should be racked off into smaller full HDPE or glass bottles.

Probably the smart thing would be to mix fresh sodium sulfite use and toss.
 
markbau said:
Thanks to all that replied, looks like Sodium Sulphite it is. That was the recommendation from the landmark article "Mysteries of the Vortex" in an old D&CCT.
Click to expand...
I have a tiny electronic scale that I bought for around 10 USD at a coin dealer. It weighs, I believe up to 100 grams. It has all kinds of units, grams, grains, troy ounces, avoirdupois ounces, penny weight, carat etc. Comes in handy for mixing developers etc. I'm sure if you could continue to use a heaped teaspoon for a measure it would be fine. But if you want to calibrate your spoon, these come in handy.
Best Regards Mike
 
ruilourosa said:
i would not use sodium carbonate... it will soften your emulsion without need...

you can use also the same amount of sodium chloride... a heaped table spoon to a liter of H2O...
Click to expand...

Does sodium chloride work for real?
I had read about it somewhere and have been using for the past few months without much faith in it, but is it true?
 
Ian Grant said:
Calgon is no longer Sodium hexametaphosphate so should not be used. In fact the ingredients of Calgon can differ quite a bit but it's definitely not suitable for Wash Aid.

Ian
Click to expand...
Mine comes from a photo chemical supplier in Hamburg and is called Photocalgon.I just add it when hard water is used to prevent calcium scum on negatives.
 
larfe said:
Does sodium chloride work for real?
I had read about it somewhere and have been using for the past few months without much faith in it, but is it true?
Click to expand...
this must be based on the old story that seawater was effectively used as washwater during WWII. BTWaverage sea water contains 3.5% NaCl. I saw it proposed as washing aid with an additiobal0.5% of sodium sulfite and it tested successfully in removing residual hypo in my tests but no netter than a 2 % sodium sulfite solution mixed 1+4.
 
When film is washed after fixation, Thiosulfate will diffuse rapidly out of the emulsion. At some point a stubborn level of Thiosulfate will remain embedded in the gelatin and this residue washes out only very slowly. The most speedy and effective way to get this residue out is through ion exchange. This is the reason, why prints should be washed in clean water first before they are immersed in HCA, and why deionized water is no good for washing.

Different anions are differently capable of replacing the Thiosulfate and must be at the same time not detrimental to long term stability of the photographic image. A test was made, and Sulfite came out on top, whereas salt water was less effective. Both were still more effective than pure water, and I guess in some regions salt water would be much, much cheaper than Sodium Sulfite. Note, that measurements have also confirmed, that after a fixer at pH >= 4.8 no HCA is needed anyway.
 
Home brew wash aid sounds good, but I use perma wash. 1gallon has lasted me almost 20 years, it seems to be like a lifetime supply, like a 6oz bottle of p-flow.
 
The old Kodak Darkroom Dataguide stress the use of HCA when washing prints in COLD water. Many parts of the US have very cold tap water, Kodak's point was washing was nil at water temps below 45F.
 
I only use HCA with film (as I almost always print on RC).
I dump the package contents into a small bottle. Each time I have a film developing session I shake up the bottle and then mix up some working solution - using a half teaspoon of powder in 600 ml of water each time. I discard the mixed solution after the session.
HCA is the only powdered chemical that I deal with this way. From what I can tell, it doesn't matter much for HCA if there are small variations in the relative amounts of the individual components.
 
If your water isn't too hard, then you can easily use a plain sulfite bath as a wash aid. The addition of a bit of sodium bisulfite tweaks the pH a bit to get the optimum swelling of the gelatin. Here are a couple formula. My usual is the spoon recipe; easy, quick and effective. I use it one session:

Hypo-Clearing Agent
.................................Stock Solution................One Shot
Water (125º F)..............500ml............................500ml
Sodium Sulfite..............200g...............................20 g
Sodium bisulfite..............2g................................0.2 g
Water to make.............1 liter...............................1 liter
Dilute Stock Solution 1:9 for use. Use One-Shot solution full strength.

The sodium bisulfite is in the formula to lower the pH to 7-7.5 to bring the emulsion to the iso-electric point which facilitates washing. Note: sodium metabisulfite can also be used. Alternately, 2g citric acid per 20g sodium sulfite will acidify the solution as well. this is similar to adding bisulfite/metabisulfite and chelates calcium ions in the tap water as well.

Hypo-Clearing Agent (my spoon recipe and choice)
Sodium sulfite.............1 Tbsp (22.8g)
Sodium bisulfite...........generous pinch
Water to make...............1 liter
Use full-strength. This is my preferred recipe; easy to mix and essentially the same as the formula above. The same notes about metabisulfite and citric acid apply.This is easy to mix on the spot, and just fine and dandy if your water is not too hard.


"Kodak HCA*"
....................................Stock Solution................One Shot
Water................................500ml............................500ml
Sodium Sulfite (anhyd.).......100g...............................20g
Sodium Bisulfite..................1.25g............................0.25g
EDTA Terasodium Salt...........5g..............................1.25g
Sodium Citrate (5,5-hydrate)...5g..............................1.25g
Water to make.....................1 liter...........................1 liter
*This may very well be Kodak's formula. The stock solution needs diluting 1:4 for use. The EDTA and citrate are for hard water sequestering and pH adjustment. This would be the go-to formula if you have hard water.

Best,

Doremus
 
This sounds like a darn good idea. I've got some wide mouth "packer" bottles. As long as it's dry HCA will stay good.
 
mshchem said:
This sounds like a darn good idea. I've got some wide mouth "packer" bottles. As long as it's dry HCA will stay good.
Click to expand...
but the question iso you rally need HCA for film or RC paper, since there are no fibers for the hypo to clinc to in the first place. especially for RC papers,there is such a thing as 'overwashing'.
 
Not try
Not trying to make you type out a Novel, but.....what is your basic washing procedure for film when using "Perma Wash".?
Thank You
 
CMoore said:
Not trying to make you type out a Novel, but.....what is your basic washing procedure for film when using "Perma Wash".?
Thank You
Click to expand...

With the film reels in a one litre Paterson tank, after HCA I give it a ten minutes wash in water that is flowing steadily but very slowly - about a litre every two minutes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register