Hobbyist/Amateur quantities of ECN2?

fotoobscura · Jan 17, 2018

I'm looking for a kit of 1/5/maybe 10 liter quantities to develop ECN2. There's one available in the UK but they can't ship to the states. Anyone know of one?

Thanks,
FO

Young He · Jan 17, 2018

As far as I know, there are none. Probably due to low demand and the tendency for the chems to go bad after a while.

You could just buy the 100l of chemicals to last you a lifetime... Too bad this stuff goes bad after some time. I would say your best bet for small amounts of chemicals is just to mix your own. Cross processing ecn2 in c41 gives acceptable results, albeit not very archival and slight contrast shifting. Depends on the user. Some people think the cross process is fine, but others think it is utter crap. Mixing your own chemicals also has side effects and sometimes bad results.

You could ask a big lab for chemicals, although I have never tried. If you are not too worried about getting your pictures up to standard and perfectly balanced in everything, I would recommend mixing your own chemicals. I have heard that some people sell kits on ebay, but have yet to find one.

I do not think ECN2 is worth all the work loading one's own film and developing in either c41 or potentially bad homemade chemicals. If your concern is cost, Fujifilm's c200 is a very nice film that can be bought for $2 a roll, maybe less. I was once lured by the potential of $1 per roll of film.... Depends on the user. If you like the qualities of ECN2, I don't think it's all that special, especially considering how it is harder to process than c41 and you either have to roll your own or buy completely overpriced already rolled canisters. Just my opinion.

fotoobscura · Jan 19, 2018

I think it has more to do with regulations on shipping the chemistry. There are kits on Ebay but they're all in the UK and they can't legally ship the chemistry outside Europe. If there's a DIY E6 kit it seems feasible that someone would make en ECN2 kit too. Freestyle sells various Vision films pre-loaded for around $5 a roll, not really that expensive if you're into experimentation. I'm actually surprised Freestyle doesn't sell ECN2 chemistry considering they roll their own film for it. Xpro in C41 isn't horrible but ECN2 proper provides much more accurate representation of the film.

Thanks for the reply.

Young He · Jan 19, 2018

No problem. You are right, chemistry regulations are a large part in not being able to ship to the US. All my experience with pre-loaded rolls from motion picture stock is they are all overpriced. You can easily hand roll from clearance stock at $1.50-2.00 per roll. As ECN2 films can be processed in C41 at home and various labs develop rolls of ecn2, there really isn't too much demand for a kit. There are E6 kits because many photographers shoot slide compared to the small amount who shoot on motion picture stock.

I find that ECN2 in C41 gives acceptable results in terms of color, but your opinion might differ. If you want true ECN2 you should mix your own. Some recipes give decent results, although they will obviously not be up to professional chemical quality. Make sure the recipe uses CD3 (I believe but don't trust me on this) as the color developing agent if you want to improve the stability.

It might be profitable to spend the $700 (I think) ish on a crap ton of kodak's chemicals and sell them in small packaged form to other people. There would have to be a lot of demand though because chemicals do go bad quickly.

lantau · Jan 19, 2018

Vision3 and ECN2 is an ongoing project for me because I find it interesting. Its amazing to hold a 400ft roll in your hands in the dark, and the acetate smell. Just like Fuji E6 film. But if cheap bulk film is the principal motivator, then I will strongly advise anyone against it. It takes some effort and for all the bulk film and bulk chemicals there is quite some upfront cost. Once you made the investment you're cruising along, though.

If you want to use Vision3 and hence remove remjet and possibly play around with the native ECN2 chemistry then there is no way around the bulk rolls. Those pre rolled films at at least $5 a piece are too expensive for that. It's amazing btw, that people are paying $10 for respooled 5222/doubleX. I bought five rolls in HK for half that, which was expensive enough. Unlike the colour cinefilm, however, you can use it like any b/w film (or not and you mix D96). Buying a few rolls of 5222 like that allows one to see what it is like. If you like it then buying a fresh 400ft roll from Kodak will be roughly the same cost per foot as bulk HP5+. But a large up front investment of course.

I doubt that you can evaluate Vision3 film as well as you can doubleX with just five rolls.

Young He · Jan 19, 2018

Fuji makes some great consumer level films..... haha.

The initial investment is bound to be large, but buying directly from Kodak seems like a hassle. Frame24 sells 35mm and 65mm stock that is factory sealed and fairly new for very cheap.
My question is how you are making 100 liters of chemistry last enough time for you to use all of it.

Edit: Didn't notice you lived in EU. Guess that makes it easier to buy kits then.

lantau · Jan 19, 2018

I mix it from bulk/raw chemicals. They have indefinite shelf live. I mixing only as much as I need at a time. The neutral ECN2 fix I make can also be used for C41 and FB paper. I'm not using kits. The biggest trouble was finding the compound that makes up AF2000. But it can be argued if we really need that anti foggant for still photography. The process is fully published by Kodak. Processing Kodak Motion Picture Films, Module 7. And yes, I bought my Vision3 films from Frame24, the first one from ebay, though, when a factory sealed roll turned up and I didn't know Frame24 yet. Frame24 was a much cheaper source. But I don't know what prices have been doing the last year.

I just looked and currently there is only 200T in 1000ft factory sealed cans available in clearance. I had 500T already and bought a roll of 50D and 250D each from them. Back then they had a huge selection. I guess some major movie productions must have had finished then, with plenty of film left over.

They don't say what new product will cost, except 5222 at £200 for 400ft. Plus tax and shipping. They charge 20% UK VAT, also when exporting to other EU countries. At the current exchange rate that makes €68 for 100ft. Bulk HP5+ at Foto Impex costs €71, up from €68 before. So it's a matter of taste, film speed and willingness to pay for 400ft at a time.

Young He · Jan 19, 2018

Ah. Individual chemicals do last quite a while. Good for you; using kodak's sheets!
I never knew kodak published formulas...... I wonder if there is one for C41 or E6 or RA4. Mixing them by hand seems like an idea solution for larger volumes without spending too much. Time to go searching on the interwebs!

They do have 65mm 50D, but you are right the 35mm is rather limited. 200 ISO is pretty good though. I check every once in a while and they do get new film every so often.

Buying new probably isn't worth it but the clearance film is very cheap, on the order of 165 pounds per 1000 feet. I gave up on ECN2 a while ago; it is a pretty high up front cost.

Jeff Bradford · Jan 19, 2018

I have heard of people developing ECN2 films in RA4 chemistry, though I have not tried it. I bought an ECN2 kit on eBay from a seller in Russia. I haven't tried it yet either. So far, I have only tried C41 chemistry and I don't mind the look. Mostly, I just wanted access to Tungsten-balanced films for a few projects and CineStill is more expensive than I would like to pay for my "experimental" work.

iandvaag · Jan 20, 2018

lantau said:
I mix it from bulk/raw chemicals. They have indefinite shelf live.

This depends on the chemical, it is not true of CD-3.

It's not too challenging to mix your own chemicals, Kodak has posted the formulas here: https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf. It is hard to say whether or not these formulas are up to date, or if all versions of the bleach are optimal for the current generation of Vision3 films. I have had reasonably good results. I use the ferricyanide bleach since it is cheap.

You can get chemicals in reasonable/small quantities from Artcraft in the US; or Argentix in Canada with the possible exception of sulfuric acid for the stop bath.

Remjet can be a pain, and it is pretty likely some particles will be deposited on the emulsion regardless of your removal technique.

Good luck with finding a solution!

Berri · Jan 20, 2018

bellini makes an ECN2 kit

trendland · Jan 20, 2018

lantau said:
Vision3 and ECN2 is an ongoing project for me because I find it interesting. Its amazing to hold a 400ft roll in your hands in the dark, and the acetate smell. Just like Fuji E6 film. But if cheap bulk film is the principal motivator, then I will strongly advise anyone against it. It takes some effort and for all the bulk film and bulk chemicals there is quite some upfront cost. Once you made the investment you're cruising along, though.

If you want to use Vision3 and hence remove remjet and possibly play around with the native ECN2 chemistry then there is no way around the bulk rolls. Those pre rolled films at at least $5 a piece are too expensive for that. It's amazing btw, that people are paying $10 for respooled 5222/doubleX. I bought five rolls in HK for half that, which was expensive enough. Unlike the colour cinefilm, however, you can use it like any b/w film (or not and you mix D96). Buying a few rolls of 5222 like that allows one to see what it is like. If you like it then buying a fresh 400ft roll from Kodak will be roughly the same cost per foot as bulk HP5+. But a large up front investment of course.

I doubt that you can evaluate Vision3 film as well as you can doubleX with just five rolls.

Indeed - it is still amazing. And it should be no problem to asemble from 400ft.
But the time is changing in dramatic forms.
Expensive use of Motion Picture Films comes more less.
AND extensive use of the same stuff for still photography becomes more and more. Have you noticed increasing pricing of ECN 2 films ?........

with regards

PS : Thank God for rem-jet layer....
(hope it is allowed to state )
And the same is to 1000ft rolls because
not so easy to manage from spuling.

fotoobscura · Jan 29, 2018

Berri said:
bellini makes an ECN2 kit

Correct, and they won't ship it to the U.S. That kit is what started by odyssey..

fotoobscura · Jan 29, 2018

iandvaag said:
This depends on the chemical, it is not true of CD-3.

It's not too challenging to mix your own chemicals, Kodak has posted the formulas here: https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf. It is hard to say whether or not these formulas are up to date, or if all versions of the bleach are optimal for the current generation of Vision3 films. I have had reasonably good results. I use the ferricyanide bleach since it is cheap.

You can get chemicals in reasonable/small quantities from Artcraft in the US; or Argentix in Canada with the possible exception of sulfuric acid for the stop bath.

Remjet can be a pain, and it is pretty likely some particles will be deposited on the emulsion regardless of your removal technique.

Good luck with finding a solution!

Must agree w/r/t Remjet being a pain- Years ago I came across about 200 rolls of K64- outdated by 20-30 years and essentially worthless. I started shooting it anyway and developed it in BW chemistry. I have never had such black hands.. (worked though)..

Sarath · Jan 29, 2018

Did anyone ever bought ecn2 chemicals?. I still have 5 1000 feet 7222 Eastman Kodak film. It would economical to buy ecn2 chemical as I will have nearly 900 36exp 35 mm films.

For now it's in a storage unit, whenever I am coming back to USA; I will check with our community about best option for developing those rolls.Not planning to resell those 1000 feet rolls.

lantau · Jan 29, 2018

Are you sure it's 7222? That would be 16mm Double X, if I'm not mistaken.

Sarath · Jan 29, 2018

lantau said:
Are you sure it's 7222? That would be 16mm Double X, if I'm not mistaken.

Sorry it's 5222.

Ko.Fe. · Jan 29, 2018

You could develop in C-41 kit. It doesn't really matter. You'll get as weird results as in ECN-2 kit. I've done in both. You'll get closer to normal colors with D films under daylight and T (like 800T) seems to work great in artificial low light.
Just use BH 1L C-41 kit available in store only.

I'm finding 1L kits working best for me. Easy to handle, easy to store.
Latest news is what 2L kit could be split by two 1L kits and one could be stored in freezer for long enough time before it gets in to the use.

I had my buddy in Moscow done ECN-2 kits for me. He sold some on-ebay in 2017, but it was not in high demand. He was shipping USA, Europe, Canada.
If someone is interested, PM me, I'll ask if he still does it.

lantau · Jan 29, 2018

Sarath said:
Sorry it's 5222.

But that's still Double X,only in 35mm. And that is a black&white film, which you don't develop in ECN2, a colour developer.

newcan1 · Feb 1, 2018

There is an unofficial ECN2 formula on here somewhere that works perfectly fine. IMO you don't need AF2000 - I have used both the unofficial formula in a thread here somewhere, and the official Kodak one, without noting a difference.

fdonadio · Feb 3, 2018

Sarath said:
Sorry it's 5222.

That’s Double-X. It’s a black and white film. I process it in D-76 1+1 for 10 minutes at 20 degrees Celsius. Continuous agitation for the first 30 seconds, then five inversions every 30 seconds.

Rolfe Tessem · Feb 3, 2018

The only unusual chemical that ECN2 uses is CD3, which is easy to obtain in the US, but maybe not elsewhere in the world. It is a proprietary Kodak formula, I believe.

Berri · Feb 8, 2018

fotoobscura said:
Correct, and they won't ship it to the U.S. That kit is what started by odyssey..

try asking uk shop nik & trick they might ship to the states

Alain Deloc · Nov 17, 2018

Ko.Fe. said:
You could develop in C-41 kit. It doesn't really matter. You'll get as weird results as in ECN-2 kit. I've done in both. You'll get closer to normal colors with D films under daylight and T (like 800T) seems to work great in artificial low light.
Just use BH 1L C-41 kit available in store only.

I'm finding 1L kits working best for me. Easy to handle, easy to store.
Latest news is what 2L kit could be split by two 1L kits and one could be stored in freezer for long enough time before it gets in to the use.

I had my buddy in Moscow done ECN-2 kits for me. He sold some on-ebay in 2017, but it was not in high demand. He was shipping USA, Europe, Canada.
If someone is interested, PM me, I'll ask if he still does it.

Hi there! You said you developed Kodak Vision3 in both ECN2 and C41 I am looking for an experienced opinion, because I want to purchase a 400ft roll of Kodak Vision3. So, if you could give me your opinion, that would be great. How far is the C41 color shift comparing to ECN2 for the same film? Can that color shift be adjusted after scanning?\
Thanks!

Ko.Fe. · Nov 17, 2018

Alain Deloc said:
Hi there! You said you developed Kodak Vision3 in both ECN2 and C41 I am looking for an experienced opinion, because I want to purchase a 400ft roll of Kodak Vision3. So, if you could give me your opinion, that would be great. How far is the C41 color shift comparing to ECN2 for the same film? Can that color shift be adjusted after scanning?\
Thanks!

Color shift is present in both C-41 and ECN-2. So, it just more practical to use single C-41 kit for both ECN-2 and C-41 films.
Do not expect any of ENC-2 film to be replacement as C-41 film. I have another, fresher batch of Fuji cinefilm purchased here on APUG classifieds. Very cheap.
To get results I like with ECN-2 films I have to try my two scanners and three different scanning software.

If you'll get is as it worth - cheap, it is interesting film for BW. I do make BW prints from it.

So, cinefilm is color film with odd colors and fine grain film for BW.

Hobbyist/Amateur quantities of ECN2?

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