Historical applications of black and white slides and reversal processing

The oil lamp will aid in the historic aspect.

wblynch said:

The oil lamp will aid in the historic aspect.

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I know it will. Since the class is in the daytime, I'll have to use this inside, and I'm concerned with safety. I dont want it to get knocked over (which will bemost likely by me ) or give off fumes that might be unsafe.

If I can find a metal container suitable for a magic lantern, I might try to work with it. I'm not very experienced working with metal,so it'll pretty much have to be something ready made that I can convert intio a magic lantern. I'm going to have to make something with wood and a lightbulb unless I just happen to find a metal container that will work. I might find something, though.

I've built a couple of pinhole cameras out of plywood. I'm tweaking my pinhole camera design and trying to turn it in to a magic lantern. After I decide on measurements, I'll post a sketch, maybe

Well, I developed my third roll of 35mm FP4+ on Thursday, and I think I've finally got the reversal process figured out.

I developed the first roll in Dektol 1:3 and developed the film 9min at 20C and agitating 10 seconds each minute. That roll was very underdeveloped. It was almost opaque black, but I could get a dark image if the projector was really close to the wall (probably 12x16 or slightly larger).

I developed the second one in Dektol 1:2 12 minutes at 20C using the same agitation method. That roll was better but still dark.

I did the third roll in Dektol 1:2 for 12 minutes at 20C with constant agitation for all 12 minutes, and that roll came out very well. I think I might have to tweak the exposure and first developer a little bit to get it perfect, but I'm very close to having perfect black and white slides

To get the contrast and shadow detail I want, I'm having to expose at EI 32, which is slower than I expected. I was thinking maybe 64 or 50, but I found 32 to be a bit of a shock. I was wanting to try out PanF next, but exposing it at EI 12 really isnt sitting well with me right now, probably because I'm used to HP5+ and FP4+ negatives. Shooting at lower than EI 64 is new to me, but I think I can handle it after I shoot a few more rolls

BTW, the projected slides from my third roll look really good. I'm projecting it on one of those digital projector screen at school and filling up the whole screen with the slide. Even at that big of a projection, the grain isnt noticible if I'm standing behind the projector, and it's really not extremely grainy when I get close to the screen. I do like grain, though, so someone else might find the grain unbearable (I usually develop my HP5+ in Rodinal and do a decent amount of cropping when I print )

Magic lantern projectors usually employed more intense sources of light than oil. It was usually some kind of lime compound that burned shiny and bright so that glass plates could show on a large screen.

Around the late 19th century, before movies were a commercial reality, lantern slide shows were very popular and hot. Jacob Riis, for example, made his photos of the Lower East Side known not just through newspapers (which usually reproduced them as engravings) but also through his many magic lantern-illustrated lectures.

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:

Magic lantern projectors usually employed more intense sources of light than oil. It was usually some kind of lime compound that burned shiny and bright so that glass plates could show on a large screen.

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When magic lanterns first came around back in the 1600's, didnt they use candles and oil lamps? I believe I read that on a magic lantern historical society website. I printed out some magic lantern history stuff, but I left the folder with my printouts at school. I'll try to look it up again to make sure I didnt misread something.


For class, I'm pretty much making a "prototype" magic lantern. It's going to be wood and use a light bulb. I know that may not be perfectly historic, but I think it'll be close enough for me to show my instructor and the rest of the class how they worked. If this lantern turns out as well as I'm expecting, I might improve my model and use more historic materials

A good compromise between authenticity and incendiarism might be a propane-type Coleman lantern. You will need a respectable "chimney" in any case, to keep from overheating the projector while not flooding the room with stray light.

Many of the archaic lenses currently favored by the Petzval crowd are actually former projection lenses. These tend to be about f/2.5 or so wide open, which may give you some idea of what you want for a lens. For your purposes, a thrift-shop slide projector lens may be just the ticket, or simply try a decent sized magnifying glass. Surplus-store copier and overhead projector lenses are also fast and cheap, and may be suitable if you are working with 2-1/4 or larger film.

For what it is worth, the "limelight" sources used oxygen/hydrogen or oxygen/acetylene flames to head calcium oxide to the point of incandescence; this may have been used in theaters, but probably not in more informal settings. A bare acetylene flame (a "carbide" lamp) would have worked well, and perhaps this shows up in the historical record.

2F/2F said:

FWIW, black and white "slide films" are just negative films that were optimized in contrast for reversal processing. You can use any black and white transparency film as a negative (which is what I do any time some Scala comes my way, because it makes a unique negative film that is outstanding in certain applications), and you can use any black and white negative film as a transparency...because they are all black and white negative films to begin with.

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I've heard from a local lab owner who does B&W reversal that Fomapan R does not work as straight neg because of silver antihalation layer.

By the way, how about kodak rapid process copy film? A friend of mine (museum photographer) used this film to do b&w slides. He developed with is own made developer, possibly a formula near the d-23, I think. It was a fine grain developer, x amount of metol, etc. He says that took some time, but in the mid-80's, when the director/curator wanted slides and fast, he used this!

Well, I've finally got it built and working. I finished working on it Wednesday, and it works pretty good considering a complete idiot put it together

the projected inage is a bit dim and only about 4x6, but I'm happy with it. From what I've read about the magic lantern, the first projected imaged were dim, so I guess I can argue I was going for historical accuracy

the batteries on my digital camera are dead, so I cant upload pictures yet. By the time I pick up some batteries, I should have the lantern painted (or covered with duct tape, which has been my "paint" of choice for my pinhole cameras)

You should at least look around for some gaffer's tape. It's designed for photographic applications, you know, not like duct tape...

Domin said:

I've heard from a local lab owner who does B&W reversal that Fomapan R does not work as straight neg because of silver antihalation layer.

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The guy at DR5 has said the same, though without an explanation as to why. This is really too bad. I would love a medium-speed, high-contrast, high D-max b/w negative film, like Scala.

Kirk Keyes said:

You should at least look around for some gaffer's tape. It's designed for photographic applications, you know, not like duct tape...

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I think the duct tape will work for what I'm doing.

I'm not even sure where to get gaffer's tape around here. MAybe Lowe's or home Depot? If not, I wont be getting any. I'm not going to special order it because I dont need it

As Simon indicates, B&W reversal processing was very popular with amateur home movie enthusiasts so they could shoot their 8mm (or even 16mm) footage, process it as a positive, then project it -- mostly for cost and time considerations. One guide I have from 1944 is entitled "How To Reverse Movie Film", with formulas for developer and bleach. Kind of a niche thing, and I don't know how 'historical' it is, but an interesting darkroom exercise nevertheless.

Polaroid had an instant slide film. I used it a few times a number years ago and still have the processing gadget. They also had some other instant films for 35mm format.

jeffreyg said:

Polaroid had an instant slide film. I used it a few times a number years ago and still have the processing gadget. They also had some other instant films for 35mm format.

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I really liked that 35mm bw slide film from Polaroid. Great product. Too bad it's gone.

Glass positive projection slides were also used as the primary method of teaching at universities until the late 1950s for art and science. True, most of them were 'dry plate' positives, but the information should be there somewhere. I have some glass, positive projection slides if you need a historical example. The exact dates are not known but everyone is fairly sure they are from just after WWI (world war one, not wii....). PM me or shoot me an email, I will scan them for you. I haven't done that yet so I don't know how they will turn out.

B&W positive processing is very historical. It's roots go back to the beginning of practical photography, be it on paper, glass, plate or film. Positive processes were in use before the negative.

In the beginning, positive photographic works were considered more the art because only 1 could be made.

It wasn't till later that mass produced lantern slides were made in masses for school and business use.

The cradle of Hollywood was positive processing as well.

dw

Hippolyte Bayard's process was direct positive. We don't often even think of him; the almost universally ignored other guy in the invention of the medium, along with Daguerre and Talbot. Poor fellow. A victim of publish or perish politics.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I showed my completed magic lantern in class today, and it went over fairly well. The projected image was a bit dim and small, but this is the first one I've ever made. I'm going to try to make an even better and more historically accurate magic lantern over the summer.

I'm also going to keep working with black and white slides. I've gotten some good results with FP4+, but I think I can make them better with a bit more testing. I'd also like to send some to DR5 so I can compare mine to a roll or two of professionally done film

This is a very interesting and informative Post.Thanks for the education Existing Light.
Mike

mike c said:

This is a very interesting and informative Post.Thanks for the education Existing Light.
Mike

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Thanks

This thread has been very educational for me as well, and so has the processs of learning about magic lanterns and how to process black and white slides