Highest safe temperature for B&W film?

MattKing · Oct 14, 2020

It isn't as if these are commodities that the parties can ramp up and down production and sales at will. There are capital constraints, lead time to access constituent components, shipping challenges - particularly in times of Covid - currency fluctuations and end customers who have cash flow issues of their own.
Plus a market where the big players often sell at prices that the small players can't afford to match.

mshchem · Oct 14, 2020

It's just marketing. I worked for Whirlpool. We had Jennair super premium, Kitchenaid, high end, Whirlpool Gold, Whirlpool, Maytag, perceived high quality based on Maytag products back in the 20th century, Amana, kinda a starter, youth brand. Then there were old brands like Magic chef and Roper.that would come out occasionally. The basic units in most cases share common architecture. Some like the huge 48" wide refrigerators were a super class, low volume product. It was about hitting every price point, and giving each customer what they wanted. Cars are the same thing VW makes very similar platforms under different brands.

Module Variants.

Donald Qualls · Oct 14, 2020

Another example of this -- a good few years ago, the very same car platform would be sold as a Cadillac (all the bells and whistles), Buick ("banker's Cadillac" -- didn't want to look too wealthy), Oldsmobile, and sometimes Chevrolet, in order of decreasing luxury features and "standard" vs. "optional". The Caddy would have the self-sealing tires, biggest engine, factory air, AM/FM/cassette stereo -- while the Chevy would have the 6-cylinder, with V-8 as an option, manual transmission with automatic optional, AM radio or no radio as standard and the Caddy unit not even available (unless you went to a stereo shop for the equivalent). Almost every mechanical part would interchange (provided it was the same option level -- obviously clutch parts weren't going to fit Hydra-Matic), you could often upgrade by using Caddy or Buick parts on your Chevy or Olds -- but you often couldn't buy the Chevy with those parts in it.

Anton Lukoszevieze · Oct 14, 2020

I have never pre-soaked Foma films in 20+ yrs of using, I use Fomapan 100 all the time with Rodinal 1:50, it is a wonderful film, never, ever had any problems with it.

Deleted member 88956 · Oct 14, 2020

Anton Lukoszevieze said:
I have never pre-soaked Foma films in 20+ yrs of using, I use Fomapan 100 all the time with Rodinal 1:50, it is a wonderful film, never, ever had any problems with it.

So many before have tried a square wheel, only to figure the round one works better. It matters not to some what countless others have experienced. But, nothing wrong with trying. However, finding the cause instead of trying to just flush it out is perhaps not always possible.

removed account4 · Oct 14, 2020

OP. rather than wasting rolls and rolls of film to do your heat experiments. .. why not take 1 roll and cut it up into segments that you soak in different temperature waters to see how well your extra-hot soak works? It still seems rather excessive to soak this film in very hot water ( again 80F is very hot compared to 68 or lower ) and be advised that the damage you cause your film (that is if the emulsion doesn't dissolve and your film be clear after you soak it) might not appear right away .. and might take a little time to show itself. and please post your results to this thread.
While you might be having issues with foma films and the freestyle rebranded of the same stock it might just be a covid-glitch. I've loved processing foma in caffenol and ansco 130 and dektol for years, and never had any issues with AH layers or spots ... hopefully its just a blip in the radar.. and not the new normal.

Вormental_old · Oct 14, 2020

Witold said:
So many before have tried a square wheel, only to figure the round one works better. It matters not to some what countless others have experienced. But, nothing wrong with trying. However, finding the cause instead of trying to just flush it out is perhaps not always possible.

The cause was found many messages, threads and calls to Fomapan support ago. This thread is about hacking a faster solution.

Huss · Oct 14, 2020

jnantz said:
its kind of like putting the peanut butter down before the jelly, or the other way around

It's always peanut butter first. Have you tried to spread peanut butter on top of jelly?

BradS · Oct 14, 2020

Peanut butter on one slice of bread, jelly on the other.

Huss · Oct 14, 2020

BradS said:
Peanut butter on one slice of bread, jelly on the other.

Hold on, I'm writing this down.

MattKing · Oct 14, 2020

i wonder if the reason for suggesting a pre-wash is that some people use fixer with hardener and some people use fixer without hardener, and an extended wash would be less effective for those who use fixer with hardener.

grat · Oct 14, 2020

BradS said:
Peanut butter on one slice of bread, jelly on the other.

The Wise One has Spoken.

foc · Oct 14, 2020

I have lurked in the background on this thread and I went back to the start to see what it was about as I may have got a bit lost.
The OP wants to dissolve the Foma anti-halation layer in a pre-soak and use a higher temperature to speed things up. Correct?
Not meaning to be stupid or rude, but why?
Ok I can see a reason if you are reusing the developer and giving extended times because of exhaustion but why with a one-shot developer?
I must admit I have never used a pre-wash in my professional career, personally, I think it unnecessary and a waste of time.
In fact I rather enjoyed watching the coloured developer drain from the tank.
A case of " what colour will we see today? Blue, green, red?"

Donald Qualls · Oct 14, 2020

The extended presoak is a Foma-prescribed recommendation to deal with "white spots" in the positive, which are claimed to be undissolved specks of the anthalation dye (a known bad batch of the 100 speed 120 size film has this problem). Recommended fix is 20-30 minutes presoak. OP is looking to shorten that time by using higher temperature.

OP also uses replenished Xtol (as do I), so presoaking the Fomapan cuts down on dye build-up in the developer. It does no harm (is the claim), but it's annoying to see the nice, nearly water-clear Xtol turn blue (or green, depending on your eyes).

pentaxuser · Oct 14, 2020

foc, others may well chime in and provide info but I think this thread stems from the one about white dots and Foma's reply admitting that there was a problem with the AH dye for which the remedy was a lengthy pre-wash to rid the film of any residual dye which was settling on the film and creating white dots in the positive. While a pre-wash helped it apparently didn't entirely eradicate the problem so Bormental inquired as to whether a higher temp pre-wash would solve the problem

To get the full flavour of the issue, have a look at the White Dots thread as well

pentaxuser

grat · Oct 14, 2020

If it's undissolved dye, shouldn't there be tiny green flecks on the film?

removed account4 · Oct 14, 2020

pentaxuser said:
While a pre-wash helped it apparently didn't entirely eradicate the problem so Bormental inquired as to whether a higher temp pre-wash would solve the problem

I was under the impression the OP didn't want to wait the 20 mins that foma told him to soak / wet the film so he is heating his film to lessen the time he spends processing it. to me the exercise of using hot water is counter productive because it may destroy the film and his exposures seeing foma emulsion is sort of soft and doesn't really do well in hot water. if it was me, I mean saving 10 or 15 mins isn't worth it, I'd soak the film and find something else to do in those extra few minutes. its like cooking a pie ( or cake or casserole or ... ) for 15 minutes at 500F instead of 30mins at 350F -- sure the food will cook but it will be burnt and inedible. .. maybe the OP can label his negative sleeves and jot down notes. prepare the rest of his chemistry, have a snack, make a cup of tea, email a friend, correspond to hopeful buyers of his gear, practice the electric slide, dance the hokey pokey, write love letters to his significant other, or a 1act play about waiting around for his AH dye to free itself from the film &al. during the extra few mins he has to wait for the film to be ready. most of darkroom work is spent standing around doing nothing anyways, this exercise of the 20 minutes that seems like eternity will be good practice.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 14, 2020

If I were in OP's situation, I would try a 5-10 minutes pre-soak in 5% sodium sulfite instead of warm water pre-soak as sulfite is known to decolorize anti-halation dyes. This step was recommended for films whose anti-halation dyes caused problems with some developers (e.g. MCM-100). If OP were to try this, it is always best to test first with a small strip of film as suggested by @jnantz.

BradS · Oct 14, 2020

jnantz said:
I was under the impression the OP didn't want to wait the 20 mins that foma told him to soak / wet the film so he is heating his film to lessen the time he spends processing it. to me the exercise of using hot water is counter productive because it may destroy the film and his exposures seeing foma emulsion is sort of soft and doesn't really do well in hot water. if it was me, I mean saving 10 or 15 mins isn't worth it, I'd soak the film and find something else to do in those extra few minutes. its like cooking a pie ( or cake or casserole or ... ) for 15 minutes at 500F instead of 30mins at 350F -- sure the food will cook but it will be burnt and inedible. .. maybe the OP can label his negative sleeves and jot down notes. prepare the rest of his chemistry, have a snack, make a cup of tea, email a friend, correspond to hopeful buyers of his gear, practice the electric slide, dance the hokey pokey, write love letters to his significant other, or a 1act play about waiting around for his AH dye to free itself from the film &al. during the extra few mins he has to wait for the film to be ready. most of darkroom work is spent standing around doing nothing anyways, this exercise of the 20 minutes that seems like eternity will be good practice.

do the hokey-pokey and turn yerself about!
if you get tired of that you can do the funky chicken!

glbeas · Oct 15, 2020

BradS said:
Thinking more about this economics question...and considering that film is coated in batches, that is to say that the nature of the production is quantized and the quanta are very large. A master roll represents a large number of rolls of film and a master roll is the smallest unit of production.

Consider a concrete example, lets say that the entire world wide demand for the Foma branded product can be satisfied by two and a half master rolls...(I'm just pulling these number out of the blue). Then Foma can...

produce two master rolls and let supply fall short of demand

produce three master rolls and have waste

Well, you get the picture. If they can sell that last half a master roll at some reduced margin, then....well they may enjoy greater total revenue.

EDIT: It is actually worse than this. If I remember correctly, the smallest unit of production for running a coater is very large..and involves not-inconsiderable waste at startup and stop.

I think you have found the basis for all the variability in the pricing and quality level. Looks like the film with the most problems is being made from parts of the roll that should normally be part of the startup or shutdown waste. Someone trying to save a nickel in production costs.

Agulliver · Oct 15, 2020

foc said:
I have lurked in the background on this thread and I went back to the start to see what it was about as I may have got a bit lost.
The OP wants to dissolve the Foma anti-halation layer in a pre-soak and use a higher temperature to speed things up. Correct?
Not meaning to be stupid or rude, but why?
Ok I can see a reason if you are reusing the developer and giving extended times because of exhaustion but why with a one-shot developer?
I must admit I have never used a pre-wash in my professional career, personally, I think it unnecessary and a waste of time.
In fact I rather enjoyed watching the coloured developer drain from the tank.
A case of " what colour will we see today? Blue, green, red?"

LOL....yup that's my bit of fun with Foma 120 and sheet film.....what colour will the developer be after this run? What shade of blue/green today? I've always been under the impression that it does no harm. I've had no issue with these films though unlike some I've only been using them about five years. Though I also understand OP doesn't want to hear this.

pentaxuser · Oct 15, 2020

I await the results of Bormental's trial with pre-wash at about 32 C with a great deal of interest

pentaxuser

DREW WILEY · Oct 15, 2020

I personally wouldn't subject any black and white film to temps above 75F; too much risk of emulsion frilling, especially with EU films. As per the pricing differential between Foma branding and Arista private label of the same thing, there's a simple marketing answer. Freestyle buys a big bulk orders which justifies manufacture of the full roll. Foma presumably at least breaks even on the first bulk cut for them, but then makes most of its profit on what it sells under its own label afterwards. Is there a quality difference? Maybe, maybe not; just depends. There have been cases in the past where the earlier part of the cut, going to Arista label, occurred prematurely, when the master roll was not yet fully cured, so emulsion defects like fine cracking appeared. This happened with respect to the so-called 200-speed product. Whether any other emulsions were affected, I don't know. There are past threads about the specific problem.

Вormental_old · Oct 15, 2020

foc said:
I have lurked in the background on this thread and I went back to the start to see what it was about as I may have got a bit lost.
The OP wants to dissolve the Foma anti-halation layer in a pre-soak and use a higher temperature to speed things up. Correct?
Not meaning to be stupid or rude, but why?

Because Foma Bohemia, in their customer support email, suggested to pre-soak Fomapan 100 for 20 (!) minutes before developing and I wanted to speed it up. Why? Because they had a faulty batch which requires this mumbo-jumbo to fully dissolve the AHU.

glbeas · Oct 15, 2020

Old high temperature developer formulas had a high salt content to fight emulsion swelling. I wonder if salt water of sufficient concentration will remove the layer at those temps with less chance of emulsion damage.

Highest safe temperature for B&W film?

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Highest safe temperature for B&W film?

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