HIE - exposure guidance

[mhanc]

I was in my local camera store and walked by the [thinly stocked] film refrigerator when I spotted some HIE sitting there in the back. I calmly asked the salesperson how much for that film in the back. He took a look at it and said that since it expired in 2005 it would be $2.25 a roll. Calmly I said I would take it all. So now I have 8 rolls of HIE in my refrigerator.

I haven't shot this film since around 1975 or so and have forgotten the details of how I exposed it. So I had several questions that I hoped the group could help with. I am not looking to do anything fancy or get it 100% perfect. I just want to get the most images I can from this limited supply of HIE as it is probably the last time I will get to use it.

I would probably shoot late afternoon sunlight landscapes to start out.

1. What filter? I previously used something like an R25 dark red filter that blocks UV and blue light. This is what is recommended on the Kodak data sheet, but is there another filter of this type that is better? Also, what about a filter that blocks all visible light including red? Would this type filter result in harder to determine exposure settings and, therefore, fewer good images?

2. EI? For a given filter what EI or filter factor would you use. I know this is difficult given that light meters aren't sensitive to IR and this may lead me to an R25 type filter, but, it would be good to know what filter/EI combination other have had success with. Given the limited supply, I would like to avoid test exposures as well as too much bracketing.

3. What developer? Just looking for the "go to" developer here. D-76 was what I used years ago and is the reference on the Kodak data sheet but didn't know if collective wisdom would point me to another one.

Thanks!

 

[Mackinaw]

While I haven't shot HIE in years, I can tell you that back in the day I (mainly) used a red 25 filter. Exposure on a bright sunny day was F8 @ 1/125. Development time, in Xtol 1:1, was 14 1/2 minutes at 20 C. I also used a 87C filter (opaque) with an exposure of F6.3 @ 1/60. I never use a light meter with HIE and just use the above-mentioned times as a starting point always bracketing my exposures. More times than not, I always got a few good pictures.

Hope this helps.

Jim B.

 

[keithwms]

With a dark red I'd try EV+3, maybe even +2, but it will of course depend on the light. In any case, I would bracket EV +1 through +4.

Yep, I also was thinking that xtol might be the best option, but sure, D76 would be fine. Based on a test snip you might decide to protect the highlights a bit (=try not to build up too much contrast index about the highlights) and aim for a slightly compensating dilution like 1+1. But I bet 1+1 will be just fine, and if you find you need a bit more zip in the highlights you can dip the negs in selenium.

The main technical challenge with these IR films, in my opinion, is to avoid letting the Wood-effect tones go to blocked up, pure white. Mind you, some folks like that look, so to each his own....

If you want more Wood effect then you could use an rm72 filter. Offhand I don't recall the exposure comp with HIE, maybe ~+5 or so, again bracketing quite widely depending on what kind of light you have.

 

[mhanc]

Thanks - this is great and really helps.

Here is what I am thinking. The Kodak HIE data sheet recommends as a starting point for wratten #25, #29 or #89b filters an EI of 200 for cameras with a TTL meter, which I have. The #25 has a filter factor of 8 which matches the EV+3 suggested. From that point I would bracket one stop above and below. I know meter readings through filters can be "off" for visible light, not to mention IR. So, I will have to make qualitative judgements based on all the variables affecting filtered and IR exposure of the actual scene and adjust the starting point and/or bracketing accordingly. Am I on the right track or am I missing anything here?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[2F/2F]

I'd start by reading the data sheet for the film.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

1/250 at 6.3 with B+W 092 for full summer sun light.

Set camera meter to 800 and meter middle grey result right thru the filter. You do not need to meter or bracket for full summer sun. I never do.

If you do not use a deep IR filter, you will loose the white grass and leaves and the film will appear more as normal film.

If you invest in the 092, it works well on Ilford SFX. It is in fact the same as the SFX recommended filter.

Open the film can and load the camera and unload in total 100% darkness. Some plastic film tanks are not IR opague. Stainless is ok always.

D76 undiluted for 8.5 minutes at 68 for a condenser enlarger.

Focus should be centered on 5.6 on the debth of field scale because IR is bent differently from visable light IF YOU use an IR filter. This means you set the camera focus to 20 feet or so for infinity subhects with IR film If you use red or something else that allows a lot of visable light thru, all changes. You are on your own.

If you don`t follow my advice and go in some other direction, you will waste 5 rolls before you figure out what to do.

Leica rangefinders are best because you put the filter on and can still see.
Some who use slr cameras put polyester, NOT gell, between the film rails in front of the film.
You can also use a lens filter and auxillary filter on a slr.

If your camera does not have a flat pressure plate, be aware the lack of an antihalation back will mean the pressure plate pattern will imprint on the image under some conditions. Cover the pressure plate with MMM black waterproof tape or the black backing from 120 roll film. Unless you like waffle marks on you nice black skies.

 

[DaveOttawa]

mhanc, I have taught a workshop on IR phoography with HIE in the past and would be quite happy to email you a pdf of the course notes (it's only 195K in size) if you want, pm me with an email address. There are many misunderstandings propagated about this material, one of which is that it is all a big mystery; it isn't if you understand the basics about how exposure and development work and extend them into the near IR region to which HIE is sensitive.

 

[keithwms]

Dave, why not convert whatever you have into an article for all to read? Or is it proprietary?

 

[Jeff Kubach]

I would use a 25 or 29 red filter and barcket some.

Jeff

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

I'd start by reading the data sheet for the film.

Good advice.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f13/f13.pdf

 

[DaveOttawa]

Dave, why not convert whatever you have into an article for all to read? Or is it proprietary?

Not proprietary at all, but it is oriented towards HIE which is no longer available except as expired stock so I doubt it is of much general interest.

 

[timbo10ca]

Not proprietary at all, but it is oriented towards HIE which is no longer available except as expired stock so I doubt it is of much general interest.

I'm interested!

 

[No Digital]

Me too!

Anyway my experience with this film is:

- red filter (25? yes, I think so)
- set 800 iso on the camera (200 iso on a hand meter)
- rodinal 1+50 12 minutes at 20 °C or D-76 stock 11 minutes and 30 seconds

Because the film you found is expired in 2005 and not stored in freezer I suggest you to set 400 iso on your camera (100 iso on hand meter) because I saw, in past years, that HIE film loses sensibility when expired.

Then, of course, remember to correct focusing (or use DoF closing at least at f/8 - f/11), to use cameras with no ir sensors inside and to develop it in a steel tank or a alluminium-film-covered tank (paterson is quite transparent to IR frequencies)

 

[DaveOttawa]

Me too!

...develop it in a steel tank or a alluminium-film-covered tank (paterson is quite transparent to IR frequencies)

I have never had any visible fogging using various examples of Paterson daylight tanks in room light. The cassette light trap on the other hand is not IR tight IME - I have seen fogging when loaded in anything other than complete darkness.

Dave.
PM me with an email address if you would like me to email the pdf notes from my course.

 

[2F/2F]

...develop it in a steel tank or a alluminium-film-covered tank (paterson is quite transparent to IR frequencies)

I disagree. It is totally unnecessary IME.

 

[Sirius Glass]

After I take it out of the freeze, leaving time to warm up, loading in a changing bag, putting gaffers tape on the window showing the 35mm cassette, then I handle the camera like any camera with black & white film or do I need to do anything special when it is in the car with me? I would not leave the camera with HIE in the car during the day.

Again: Then I can handle the camera like any camera with black & white film or do I need to do anything special when it is in the car with me?

Steve

 

[mhanc]

Thanks for all the very generous help and input from everyone here!!!! This has given me a really good starting place for exposure and development.

 

[No Digital]

I don't cover my paterson with alluminium-film but

- I leave the tank in total darkness up to the moment I begin developing
- Possibly I don't develop during day to avoid sun light (I use neon lights where I develop)
- When developin during day I put the tank in shadow and in a metal container (my washbasin or a pot)

I fogged several films (at least the first half) the first times I developed HIE without these "tricks"; maybe it is my paterson only to be IR "transparent" but to prevent is better than to throw away the film.

IMHO of course.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Did you load and unload you film in a darkroom or changing bag?

The directions for HIE clearly state use in complete darkness.

Steve

 

[No Digital]

Generally complete darkness but a changing bag is equivalent (if in good conditions, of course); once I used the camera bag partially closed as "changing bag", and I had no problems of fogging.
I'm quite sure my fogging problems were due to the tank and not to uncorrect loading/unloading film.
Anyway developing in shadow after sunset should minimize any sort of problems: since I use this "trick" I had no more fogged HIE films.