Hi From California (Here for RA4 darkroom help)

Hi

I'm a LA based photographer and finally signing up because I saw a Jobo Printlab 3503 and I need to make 20 post to DM them or figure out how to get access to reply in that classified post lol. I have always lurked on here and I look forward to using the forums more for some advice and good conversation.

At the moment I am looking to build a darkroom at home to do RA4 prints. Looking to learn more about differences in enlargers and possible options and also routes to go for processing prints. After some exploring of options even Colex processor machine I think the move for home at the moment may be drums in a Jobo CPP2 lift setup and just print slower when I'm printing at home (and use community lab for larger batch printing days)

I am still eyeing a Fijimoto CP-31 but since I still get a wet print I'm wondering if its worth that amount of money and would also potentially be something that could fail or become a hassle fixing and maintaining. So maybe a drum system wouldn't be too much of a different hassle if I'm still ending up with wet prints to squeegee and dry.

I've now just discovered the Jobo Printlab 3503 which seems like a cool machine and gives you dry to dry prints. Anyways looking forward to learning from the knowledge here and chatting with everyone.

You should be able to contact one of the moderators to forego the 20 post minimum to DM a member- they just have to confirm you are real and not a scammer.
Where in California are you? I like to print RA 4 as well. I have a roller transport processor and I buy my chemistry “Silver pixel” from Freestyle.

arespencer said:

I need to make 20 post to DM them or figure out how to get access to reply in that classified post lol

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btaylor said:

You should be able to contact one of the moderators to forego the 20 post minimum to DM a member

Click to expand...

Thanks; yes, that's accurate; it's explained here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-the-classifieds-section-works-read-this-first.204146/
@arespencer I've done the check @btaylor mentioned and have enabled your PM access. You can now post replies in the Classifieds section and you can initiate private conversations with other forum members. Hope this helps!

Also, cool to hear you're into color darkroom printing! There seems to be some (modest) growth in this practice, which is quite exciting to see. There are several ways to do color printing at home; the simplest is just using trays and room temperature chemistry, very much like B&W printing. I've done it that way for years until I ran into a processor (well, a few...) I also tried drums, but never liked the workflow; I felt I spent too much time drying drums.

Welcome aboard

I do RA4 in drums, and have up to 30X40 inch print capacity. I recommend at least learning on that route before going out an investing a lot of money on any automated system requiring replenishment and more complex maintenance. I do not recommend open trays because you'll be exposing yourself to more chemical vapors. I know, I know... certain people will claim they've been doing it that way for years with no health issues, and then suddenly, Whameee - they become sensitized and can never do it again. Regardless, make sure your darkroom has good ventilation drawing the air away from you and into the exterior ducting itself.

You'll need a decent colorhead and some kind of waterbath to keep the solutions at constant predictable temperature. I recommend the Silver Pixel kits which Freestyle LA sells, which performs identically to former Kodak Ra/Rt kits (I gave up on so-called "room temp" chemistry long ago).

Paper is the bigger problem. The cut sheet Crystal Archive paper which they sell is fine for learning purposes; but later on you might want to try the much wider range of Fuji papers which comes in roll version only.

You'll also discover you get much different results depending on whether you're shooting a low contrast film like Portra 160, or alas, something like Kodak Gold, versus a higher contrast more cleanly saturated film like Ektar 100. But RA4 procedure itself is fairly easy to learn, provided you're working with reasonably fresh chemistry and paper which isn't outdated.

DREW WILEY said:

you'll be exposing yourself to more chemical vapors

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I've very specifically verified this with FUJIFILM (also because it keeps being brought up by people who are concerned about it) and it's really a non-issue. You don't get sensitized by doing RA4 in open trays. Keep in mind that the chemicals in developer and blix solutions are not volatile; they do not go airborne under normal process conditions (unless you actually boil the solutions).

What can happen is cross-sensitization where people are exposed to other, similar substances routinely and develop a sensitization to similar molecules.

When processing in trays, of course use gloves (or tongs and IR goggles) to transfer the paper from one tray to another. Ventilation of course is always a good idea when you're working in a confined space regardless of what you're doing.

btaylor said:

You should be able to contact one of the moderators to forego the 20 post minimum to DM a member- they just have to confirm you are real and not a scammer.
Where in California are you? I like to print RA 4 as well. I have a roller transport processor and I buy my chemistry “Silverprint” from Freestyle.

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I’m based in LA but live just south of LA a little bit, but I’m in LA every week. Which roller transport system do you use? I would love to setup a darkroom at home to not have to pay and commute to a rental darkroom all the time, and only print during their open hours, since I’d love the option to print from 7pm-11pm

But I’m not exactly sure how deep I want to go into building and maintaining a darkroom. I work in the commercial photo world so I’m in a position where I could almost just go all in on a small colenta and build out a pretty proper darkroom but don’t know if I’m fully there there yet. But when I look at older roller systems that cost $5k that seem like they could be a constant expensive pain to maintain I feel like I’d rather just go in on a colenta system (if they cost what I think they cost).

So I’m sorta in this spot where I’d either go all in on a pretty legit darkroom or just keep it barebones and continue to use rental darkrooms mostly and have something cheap at home that I can run on a whim easily and knock out some contact sheets or a couple prints here and there. Like a jobo CPP2 or even trays.

koraks said:

Thanks; yes, that's accurate; it's explained here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-the-classifieds-section-works-read-this-first.204146/
@arespencer I've done the check @btaylor mentioned and have enabled your PM access. You can now post replies in the Classifieds section and you can initiate private conversations with other forum members. Hope this helps!

Also, cool to hear you're into color darkroom printing! There seems to be some (modest) growth in this practice, which is quite exciting to see. There are several ways to do color printing at home; the simplest is just using trays and room temperature chemistry, very much like B&W printing. I've done it that way for years until I ran into a processor (well, a few...) I also tried drums, but never liked the workflow; I felt I spent too much time drying drums.

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What processor are you currently using? I think long term I would love to weight the option of a Colenta Ecoline 56. I’m pretty much just looking to make prints at 11x14 size to scan for final digital or print output for the most part. But I’m curious what that machine actually cost and what it cost to run it and what the day to day maintenance looks like etc.

I do RA4 with the Bellini kit, room temp in an 8x10 cibachtome drum that I just roll around by hand. The drum cost me £10 on eBay in a bundle with some other bits. If you've not done much RA4 yet, you don't need to spend big money to test it out. Paper is the most expensive bit.

DREW WILEY said:

I do RA4 in drums, and have up to 30X40 inch print capacity. I recommend at least learning on that route before going out an investing a lot of money on any automated system requiring replenishment and more complex maintenance. I do not recommend open trays because you'll be exposing yourself to more chemical vapors. I know, I know... certain people will claim they've been doing it that way for years with no health issues, and then suddenly, Whameee - they become sensitized and can never do it again. Regardless, make sure your darkroom has good ventilation drawing the air away from you and into the exterior ducting itself.

You'll need a decent colorhead and some kind of waterbath to keep the solutions at constant predictable temperature. I recommend the Silver Pixel kits which Freestyle LA sells, which performs identically to former Kodak Ra/Rt kits (I gave up on so-called "room temp" chemistry long ago).

Paper is the bigger problem. The cut sheet Crystal Archive paper which they sell is fine for learning purposes; but later on you might want to try the much wider range of Fuji papers which comes in roll version only.

You'll also discover you get much different results depending on whether you're shooting a low contrast film like Portra 160, or alas, something like Kodak Gold, versus a higher contrast more cleanly saturated film like Ektar 100. But RA4 procedure itself is fairly easy to learn, provided you're working with reasonably fresh chemistry and paper which isn't outdated.

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Thanks! The idea of printing in drums is really cool to me just on the idea of really do the whole film process by “hand”. And I can see a world where I even prefer that process over a roller machine just on some weird “fine art” personal touch to the entire process of working with film. But for commercial work I think speed and convenience is needed.

A bit about my background, I’m in my later 30s and have been shooting photos since I was a kid, worked in 1 hr photo labs in highschool and in college while going to art school for photography. I spent years working in high end retouching studios doing retouching, drum scanning, ink jet printing. I now run my own business (aka I’m freelance) working as a digi tech, retoucher, and also shoot my own commercial, fashion and editorial work.

I’ve worked with film constantly since my college years but stopped printing B&W after college and did everything with lab dev and scanning my own images with imacons. In the last few years I’ve come back into printing in the darkroom paying for a rental lab in LA. Anyways, all that to say, I’m definitely heavily invested in photography and working with film for my personal work. So if I did go the route of building out a “proper” darkroom it would be supported by me printing work for other photographers at a high end commercial level or my own work at a commercial level if the growth ends up being there for me.

I think that’s what puts me in a confusing category for going all in on building/running my own proper lab to support commercial volume and quality or doing something ghetto at home for just for something fun at home. If I got serious about investing in a colenta I would also be looking at putting it in a studio space and potentially running it as a second business for a community rental darkroom.

Edit: I agree the Fuji type II paper is pretty trash and working with those blacks is a bummer. I currently order cut sheets of DPII from London, but that is getting really expensive, my last order was $615 for 300 sheets of 10x12. From what I’ve been able to find it seems like Fuji super type CN is the American naming of DPII or at least the most similar option. I think after I work through this batch of paper I’m going to look into buying rolls and cutting them myself. If I make a huge difference in cost without taking up too much of my time I might just start doing it myself.

arespencer said:

What processor are you currently using? I think long term I would love to weight the option of a Colenta Ecoline 56. I’m pretty much just looking to make prints at 11x14 size to scan for final digital or print output for the most part. But I’m curious what that machine actually cost and what it cost to run it and what the day to day maintenance looks like etc.

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I only print small, so most of the time an old Durst RCP20 and otherwise a 30cm Durst Printo. If it needs to be bigger, I print inkjet. 11x14" prints can go through a 12" processor which makes everything a little easier to handle. Keep in mind that the Ecoline 56 takes 7.5lt of developer and 8lt of blix. Of course 50+cm width is where serious use (as opposed to amateur printing) starts, which is why Colenta probably doesn't make anything smaller.

It's a personal call to make; I'm sure the Colenta is nice, but kind of a big step to take from zero to that level. I'd personally start with drums or trays, see how it goes and if you feel it's sensible to commit more to it (also time-wise), then do the whole darkroom thing with the proper machine etc.

And yes, old machines can be a nightmare. It sucks to have to replace a shot roller if you're actually setting up to print work. In that sense I can feel for the desire to just get a new machine and get it over with. Older machines vary in terms of how reliable they are. They're pretty simple pieces of equipment overall, but they're often long in the tooth and not cared for very well. They're also few and far between on the second hand market and prices are kind of ridiculous right now if you ask me.

tcolgate said:

I do RA4 with the Bellini kit, room temp in an 8x10 cibachtome drum that I just roll around by hand. The drum cost me £10 on eBay in a bundle with some other bits. If you've not done much RA4 yet, you don't need to spend big money to test it out. Paper is the most expensive bit.

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I print pretty regularly at a local rental darkroom so I’m definitely pretty locked in on the process, I’m exploring the options of having my own comparable setup so speed and efficiency are certainly somewhat of a priority. I think for my the realistic options I’m weighing are a jobo roller with lift, either CPP2 or even a new CPP3, an old desktop roller transport processor and even up to a colenta which is certainly a big costly project but it’s not off the table.

Koraks - don't argue with me (although I am borderline sensitive to RA4 chem myself) but with those lab owners I've known who couldn't even enter into the same parts of the facility where RA4 was being done, despite true industrial ventilation. Sensitization can build up slowly and surreptitiously. I'm not in the least bit swayed by what the chemical manufacturers and marketers might state; I've heard that kind of poo-pooing over and over again in relation to the industries I was deeply involved with. Many of those "perfectly harmless" chemicals being promoted are now internationally banned due to proven hazards. I don't want to scare color darkroom practitioners, of whom I include myself, but there is one mantra which should always apply : "Better safe than sorry".

You are correct about cross-sensitization or pre-sensitization. I discussed this with PE a number of years ago. But realize that our homes and work environments are filled with all kinds of synthetic pollutants which factor in that manner. I was particularly susceptible because my office shared ventilation with warehouses spaces containing outgassing plywood and treated wooden mouldings. After retirement, and getting away from that environment, I'm less sensitive to RA4 than I once was, but still need to be careful. That's why I do the actual development outdoors, on a portable drum cart. And that's why I didn't install a superb condition 50-inch wide Kreonite RA4 roller transport machine, even though it was offered to me for free. I also sold off my 20-inch Thermaphot roller-transport machine for the same reason.

DREW WILEY said:

Koraks - don't argue with me (although I am borderline sensitive to RA4 chem myself) but with those lab owners I've known who couldn't even enter into the same parts of the facility where RA4 was being done, despite true industrial ventilation. Sensitization can build up slowly and surreptitiously. I'm not in the least bit swayed by what the chemical manufacturers and marketers might state; I've heard that kind of poo-pooing over and over again in relation to the industries I was deeply involved with. Many of those "perfectly harmless" chemicals being promoted are now internationally banned due to proven hazards. I don't want to scare color darkroom practitioners, of whom I include myself, but there is one mantra which should always apply : "Better safe than sorry".

You are correct about cross-sensitization or pre-sensitization. I discussed this with PE a number of years ago. But realize that our homes and work environments are filled with all kinds of synthetic pollutants which factor in that manner. I was particularly susceptible because my office shared ventilation with warehouses spaces containing outgassing plywood and treated wooden mouldings. After retirement, and getting away from that environment, I'm less sensitive to RA4 than I once was, but still need to be careful. That's why I do the actual development outdoors, on a portable drum cart. And that's why I didn't install a superb condition 50-inch wide Kreonite RA4 roller transport machine, even though it was offered to me for free. I also sold off my 20-inch Thermaphot roller-transport machine for the same reason.

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Even with a roller transport machine are you getting significant exposure to chemistry? I certainly will be wanting to make sure I have a setup that doesn’t blast me with tons of exposure to chems.

DREW WILEY said:

I don't want to scare color darkroom practitioners

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with

DREW WILEY said:

poo-pooing over and over again

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but then, what happens is this:

arespencer said:

I certainly will be wanting to make sure I have a setup that doesn’t blast me with tons of exposure to chems.

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It's wise to be cautious, but I wouldn't waste too much time & energy on this supposed problem. Don't drink the developer. Don't bathe in it. Otherwise you'll be fine.

You need to position those devices below an effective fume hood ventilating to the outside. That should be part of your installation plan. Common sense, whether or not the smell is noticable. My backup indoor big drum roller machine has an air-pulling trough above and behind it, connected to a duct which feeds into my main sinkroom fume hood. That in turn is ducted to a big industrial variable-speed squirrel-cage fan on the outside of the building. (Air is more efficient pulled than pushed; and having the fan outside the building is also a lot
quieter). But that's just a backup.

So far, all my big color processing, both RA4 and formerly Ciba, has been done outdoors in mild weather. Starting out, prior to having a serious dedicated darkroom, I did Ciba processing on the counter of a spare bathroom, with an ordinary fan plugged in at one end, and an open window the other direction.

But the nature of this has inherently restricted my large color printing to minimize chemical exposure. I've had some good shows, but was never able to dovetail with offers to market my work in quantity. Makes no difference - I've always been more interested in the sheer qualitative and esthetic side of it than the monetary. I would have had to quit my regular career and take quite a gamble to change the game. There was far more money to be had opening my own industrial paint business, and I had superb partnering opportunities. But if I had, I'd undoubtedly be dead long before now, just like many others working with just too many "harmless chemicals"- which were in fact downright nasty during that era.

Roller transport machines are fabulous, I have a little Durst RCP-20 like Koraks. I'm planning on using it for years to come, so.....I never let it sit with chemistry in the machine. I always plan for 30 minutes setup and 30 minutes emptying and clean up, washing and flushing everything. I figure I need to run at least 8-10 prints, which is a pretty standard run. I also use for making black and white rc prints. This machine requires washing the prints and drying separately.

I have the Ilfospeed dryer, takes a minute to warm up, then 15 seconds to dry an 8x10.

Tubes are cheap and work great. Ra-4 is so fast you just need a set of rollers. Pre warm rinse, 1 minute warm developer, (I use a quick stop) 1 minute blix, wash 1 minute, dry.

Before I bought a processor I'd buy a dryer. Much higher gloss, instant feedback on your workflow.

DREW WILEY said:

You need to position those devices below an effective fume hood ventilating to the outside. That should be part of your installation plan. Common sense, whether or not the smell is noticable. My backup indoor big drum roller machine has an air-pulling trough above and behind it, connected to a duct which feeds into my main sinkroom fume hood. That in turn is ducted to a big industrial variable-speed squirrel-cage fan on the outside of the building. (Air is more efficient pulled than pushed; and having the fan outside the building is also a lot
quieter). But that's just a backup.

So far, all my big color processing, both RA4 and formerly Ciba, has been done outdoors in mild weather. Starting out, prior to having a serious dedicated darkroom, I did Ciba processing on the counter of a spare bathroom, with an ordinary fan plugged in at one end, and an open window the other direction.

But the nature of this has inherently restricted my large color printing to minimize chemical exposure. I've had some good shows, but was never able to dovetail with offers to market my work in quantity. Makes no difference - I've always been more interested in the sheer qualitative and esthetic side of it than the monetary. I would have had to quit my regular career and take quite a gamble to change the game. There was far more money to be had opening my own industrial paint business, and I had superb partnering opportunities. But if I had, I'd undoubtedly be dead long before now, just like many others working with just too many "harmless chemicals"- which were in fact downright nasty during that era.

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Awesome, that’s great stuff to know. Ultimately this darkroom would be to support my projects I shoot. So printing my work for editorial, commercial jobs and my personal projects (for photobooks). I do already have a connection to the fashion and commercial work since I work with decent budgets, so I’m sure I could get the occasional job to print for someone else’s project but I think my rates would price out a lot of jobs since I would be inline with upper end retouching rates.

mshchem said:

Roller transport machines are fabulous, I have a little Durst RCP-20 like Koraks. I'm planning on using it for years to come, so.....I never let it sit with chemistry in the machine. I always plan for 30 minutes setup and 30 minutes emptying and clean up, washing and flushing everything. I figure I need to run at least 8-10 prints, which is a pretty standard run. I also use for making black and white rc prints. This machine requires washing the prints and drying separately.

I have the Ilfospeed dryer, takes a minute to warm up, then 15 seconds to dry an 8x10.

Tubes are cheap and work great. Ra-4 is so fast you just need a set of rollers. Pre warm rinse, 1 minute warm developer, (I use a quick stop) 1 minute blix, wash 1 minute, dry.

Before I bought a processor I'd buy a dryer. Much higher gloss, instant feedback on your workflow.

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There’s a Fujimoto CP-31 on eBay for $3 or $4k that I’m eyeing. But $4k for that machine is annoying to me and is what pushes me towards just going for a colenta. But at that size running it for a personal lab probably gets hard and expensive. If I had a roller processor I think my workflow would be to fire it up for 2 days of printing or more if I had a large project to print, and then I might not print for a week or 2 and then gear up for another 2 or 3 days of printing

I standardize on 2 min Dev and Blix step at 30C (83F), which does a better job minimizing the fill and drain factor than a mere 1 min apiece. Consistency is important when using drums. Intermediate Stop and Rinse phases can be briefer.

In terms of larger roller transport machines, by far the greatest utility expense is going to be the dryer module. These need 240V, but can be detached, with the prints simply air dried.
Basic test strips dry very quickly using an ordinary hair dryer. With smaller desktop processors (up to 20 inch width capacity) the energy wattage demands are much less.

Another issue with big machines is that they need a lot of chemical volume, which needs to be constantly monitored and replenished. That gets expensive unless you actually use them constantly. And you'd want to standardize on more affordable Fuji-Hunt chemistry in
larger initial quantities. My own intermittent style of printing always seems to end up with some unused chemistry which goes bad, even though I only mix enough at a time to cover a daily session. The smaller Part B developer component is the most susceptible, and I can't find that sold by itself. Fuji has "mono" type developer, which allegedly simplifies that issue, but their Blix is said to go bad prematurely if you don't consume it rapidly enough - not ideal for small volume printmakers. I often make big prints, but not in high volume.

There still seems to be a service and parts option for Thermaphot, but not for Fujimoto. The only Colenta machines I've seen are big industrial ones, priced more like 40K than 4K. But this is a good time to dive in, while RA4 supplies are still highly in demand and in production.
I sure like the outcome better than inkjet - especially when direct optically enlarged. It can be more nuanced and better detailed. And RA4 materials are now considerably more affordable than classic fiber-based black and white papers.

DREW WILEY said:

I standardize on 2 min Dev and Blix step at 30C (83F), which does a better job minimizing the fill and drain factor than a mere 1 min apiece. Consistency is important when using drums. Intermediate Stop and Rinse phases can be briefer.

In terms of larger roller transport machines, by far the greatest utility expense is going to be the dryer module. These need 240V, but can be detached, with the prints simply air dried.
Basic test strips dry very quickly using an ordinary hair dryer. With smaller desktop processors (up to 20 inch width capacity) the energy wattage demands are much less.

Another issue with big machines is that they need a lot of chemical volume, which needs to be constantly monitored and replenished. That gets expensive unless you actually use them constantly. And you'd want to standardize on more affordable Fuji-Hunt chemistry in
larger initial quantities. My own intermittent style of printing always seems to end up with some unused chemistry which goes bad, even though I only mix enough at a time to cover a daily session. The smaller Part B developer component is the most susceptible, and I can't find that sold by itself. Fuji has "mono" type developer, which allegedly simplifies that issue, but their Blix is said to go bad prematurely if you don't consume it rapidly enough - not ideal for small volume printmakers. I often make big prints, but not in high volume.

There still seems to be a service and parts option for Thermaphot, but not for Fujimoto. The only Colenta machines I've seen are big industrial ones, priced more like 40K than 4K. But this is a good time to dive in, while RA4 supplies are still highly in demand and in production.
I sure like the outcome better than inkjet - especially when direct optically enlarged. It can be more nuanced and better detailed. And RA4 materials are now considerably more affordable than classic fiber-based black and white papers.

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I can’t remember where I uncovered this information but I remember finding out that the smallest size colenta which can do something like 20” or 22” max width are around 10-$14k. The setup cost I could kinda justify but the cost to run it would probably end up being too hard to work with, even though I print quite frequently it’s probably still considered low volume by those machines standards.

It’s a shame someone couldn’t re produce a desktop style paper processor with a 16” max width. For my needs I really only need to make 11x14 prints max since I’m mostly just printing to scan the print for my final image asset. I know a lot of other working photographers who would love to have something like that too. I’d easily pay $5-$8k if something like that existed.

arespencer said:

I’m based in LA but live just south of LA a little bit, but I’m in LA every week. Which roller transport system do you use? I would love to setup a darkroom at home to not have to pay and commute to a rental darkroom all the time, and only print during their open hours, since I’d love the option to print from 7pm-11pm

But I’m not exactly sure how deep I want to go into building and maintaining a darkroom. I work in the commercial photo world so I’m in a position where I could almost just go all in on a small colenta and build out a pretty proper darkroom but don’t know if I’m fully there there yet. But when I look at older roller systems that cost $5k that seem like they could be a constant expensive pain to maintain I feel like I’d rather just go in on a colenta system (if they cost what I think they cost).

So I’m sorta in this spot where I’d either go all in on a pretty legit darkroom or just keep it barebones and continue to use rental darkrooms mostly and have something cheap at home that I can run on a whim easily and knock out some contact sheets or a couple prints here and there. Like a jobo CPP2 or even trays.

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I have a Beseler 16” machine ( I think it’s a Thermophot product). It’s been great. It’s simple to use and I keep it clean.
If 11x14 is sufficient, the Durst Printo roller transport machine is worth thinking about. I got one in a darkroom lot years ago. I only have the dev and blix modules so wash and dry are outside the machine, but it is fast to set up, uses minimal chemicals and uses no pumps.
When I started out with RA in the ‘80’s I used drums with a roller base. They are cheap and work well. I know a lot of people complain about drying the drums between prints, but a towel and a hair dryer worked okay for me. Also, I could do 4 8x10s in a 16x20 drum, so that can save time.
If I were going to start again and be making a minimal investment in money and space I would go with drums.
I find the smell of heated RA4 developer intolerable. I didn’t in the ‘80’s but I do now. There is no way I could handle open trays. My exposure with the RT machines is minimal, I only smell it with the Durst when I open the feed module. With drums the quantities are so small I don’t think it would bother me.

Welcome to Photrio!

looking to lift my pm restriction as well.

printing here RA4 in canada. was super lucky to find an ilford icp42 processor locally and got a durst lab enlarger. also looking for a processor that autoreplenishes and washer but its been hard to find a reliable affordable option specially due to the weaker canadian dollar.
in canada only running non private lab is at concordia in montreal... i found one lab in vancouver doing handprints. im starting to offer printing services to others due to these limitations and to share the wealth.

I know Alexander from Colenta and am often close to their headquarters here in Austria, I can ask if they have some used machinery sitting around here or know of someone in LA who wants to sell. Let me know if you need any help and I can call him up.