Help with standard 8 projection

perkeleellinen · Nov 28, 2020

Hello all,

I have been given my late uncle's standard 8 home movies - around 20 reels from the 1960s, some stored in an appalling state with the film folded in on itself on the reel. The better ones I'm having trouble projecting and I keep chewing up leader tape. I'm worried I'll destroy these movies if I keep persevering.

If a movie projects backwards, upside down and inverted does that mean the reel was not rewound some time in the past?
Should standard 8 feed into the projector with the sprocket holes toward me or away from me?
Did standard 8 film get developed with leaders on both ends?

These films are so strange and I just can't get them to thread into the projector. I've tried two different machines now and both a chewing up the leaders. I suspect user error, am I threading backwards? If I am, why is there a leader on the end?

25 years of projecting Super 8 and I've never had an issue as weird as this!

Thanks!

wiltw · Nov 28, 2020

Keep in mind a basic principle...the film needs to be loaded to keep the EMULSION on the film TOWARD THE LENS.

If a film is running backwards, that indicates that it is on the take-up reel and never got wound back onto the supply reel, as the END of the movie is located at the outer edges of the reel.

perkeleellinen · Nov 28, 2020

Thanks, so the shiny non-emulsion side is facing out on the reel which means it would face the lens. The sprocket holes are also away from me when I load the reel with the film clockwise. If I wind onto another reel will this resolve the inversion too?

Donald Qualls · Nov 28, 2020

Also important, you mentioned experience with Super 8 -- Standard 8 film has different sprocket spacing from Super 8, so a Super 8 projector will eat the film rather than run it smoothly through.

As noted, if the film is running backward, and is inverted on the screen, it wasn't rewound last time it was run.

Leaders were added after the film was developed and split (it went through the camera 16mm wide, run it once, turn the spools over and swap them, and run it again). I'd normally expect to see some length of leader on each end, but this might depend on the processor (for instance, if it was home processed -- a real possibility for black and white -- it would have leader only if your uncle bought leader stock and spliced it on.

perkeleellinen · Nov 28, 2020

I am running them through a standard 8 machine. Thanks for the comments on leaders, this is starting to make a bit more sense!

perkeleellinen · Nov 28, 2020

Tomorrow, when the sun's out I'll take a photo to show you all how some of these films are have been stored on the reel with the film folded in on itself

ic-racer · Nov 28, 2020

What kind of projector? I presume it is a self-loader and that is causing the confusion. If you had a manual loading projector, it would be very clear how the film would need to be on the reel to pass through the gate in the correct orientation (upside down and backwards). You would also be able to see the pawl, to know where the holes should be.

Usually there would be leader on each end with the middle spliced together.

btaylor · Nov 28, 2020

Yes, be sure the sprocket holes are on the same side as the sprockets in the projector. My recollection was that film usually came back from processing with a leader on the head and often not on the tail if that helps, though I’m sure there was variation on that depending on the lab. It does sound as though the film may not have been rewound- try that and see if it helps. Poor storage can cause a lot of projection problems if the film is folded or kinked. You could try rewinding the troubled reels twice (so the orientation is correct) to help work out folded creases. Auto loading projectors were great when they worked right, but they were very unfriendly to damaged film. I always preferred manual loaders.

Kino · Nov 28, 2020

What projector are you using? Auto threading or manual thread?

The loops above and below the projector aperture (the Latham Loops, as they are historically called in the US) must have enough slack to avoid ripping the perforations. They are a kind of "shock absorber" for the film.

Here's a tutorial on a common, manually loading Keystone projector in 8mm:

perkeleellinen · Nov 29, 2020

Thanks for the comments, All. I have two projectors: Elmo VP-A and a Chinon 3000GL. Both have a super 8 / standard 8 switch, both auto threading and both are chewing up my films!!

I rewound the film this morning making sure that it went onto the take up reel with the emulsion the right way. The spockets were now toward me, the correct way for the take up claw. The film threaded much easier this time which was good, however, the film did not emerge at the other end of the projector, rather, it collected at the bottom of the film gate, folded over it self and jammed. I lost all the leader and one inch of footage cleaning it out of the projector. I'm starting to think both these projectors need professional attention and I should get one looked at. I can't risk chewing up these movies.

I thought you might all like to see how some of these reels have been stored. I think this is actually three separate films:

BAC1967 · Nov 29, 2020

It sounds like part of your problem may be that your film and projector need to be cleaned. I clean my projectors film path with rubbing alcohol and a soft cotton cloth. After cleaning I apply a thin coat of 100% bees wax then wipe it off. This will lubricate the film path allowing the film to run smoothly through the projector. Make sure it’s 100% bees wax, some furniture polish wax may have harmful stuff added.

You should also clean and lubricate the film, especially if it’s that old. A set of rewinds would help with this. I recommend Filmrenew, you can get it from Urbanski film.

http://www.urbanskifilm.com/supplies.html

This is how I take care of my film and projectors and everything runs nice and smooth as it should. There are a lot of great 8mm projectors that are not auto load, that will save you a lot of grief. Bolex 18-5, Bolex M8, Kingston K109 are a few of my favorites.

Kino · Nov 29, 2020

Your auto thread projector (I call them auto-chew) needs the leader to be trimmed properly to make it through the loop formers. Most auto thread projectors have a film trimming knife attached to the body of the projector with a pin to register the film so that it is not trimmed on the perforation and it usually rounds the end of the film to make it glide more smoothly through the path.

If the film has been stored in a counter-wound position, it tends to curl in the opposite direction, causing the leading edge of the film to catch in the threading path and pile-up. You indicate that this is happening on the lower loop former below the gate, which is pretty common. You can take your fingernail and apply pressure on the emulsion side of the leader and pull it through with some pressure, thus causing it to curl the opposite direction (like making ribbons on packages curl).

Short of that, remove the side cover and thread the film in in bursts, watching the progress. When it starts to jam, redirect the film and keep pulsing the film through the path until it exits. Most auto threading projectors need a short tug on the film after it exits the auto threading path to release the loop formers above and below the gate, to avoid scratching the film on playback.

If you really want to be nice to your film, haunt the thrift shops until you find an old Keystone or B&H manual Regular 8mm projector, clean it, thread it properly and avoid all that auto mangle junk designed for lazy projectionists!

perkeleellinen · Nov 30, 2020

Thanks, Both. The film that got chewed was wound the wrong way for likely 40 years. I'll leave it on the reel the right way for a week or so to see if that helps. In the meantime I'm going to see if I can clean the path in the Chinon which is in the better condition of the two dual projectors I have. This is the one I thought I'd send out for attention but I've realised I don't want to invest much in this machine as the bulbs are scarce and expensive. I'm going to practice by running only leader tape through the machine until I'm confident all is well. Thanks for the tip on Filmrenew and bees wax - prefect time of the year for a project like this.

perkeleellinen · Nov 30, 2020

Some success, another roll ran through the Chinon without issue. The reel is also upside down, backwards and inverted but I could still see footage of a family wedding from what looks like the mid 1960s. Exciting to find this footage!

Kino · Nov 30, 2020

perkeleellinen said:
Some success, another roll ran through the Chinon without issue. The reel is also upside down, backwards and inverted but I could still see footage of a family wedding from what looks like the mid 1960s. Exciting to find this footage!

You need to get your film wind correct. See this: https://sites.duke.edu/archivox/2015/05/20/winding-film/

perkeleellinen · Nov 30, 2020

Kino said:
You need to get your film wind correct. See this: https://sites.duke.edu/archivox/2015/05/20/winding-film/

I fell asleep two nights ago mentally flipping film in my mind and imagining the correct orientation!

Kino · Nov 30, 2020

perkeleellinen said:
I fell asleep two nights ago mentally flipping film in my mind and imagining the correct orientation!

I've been doing this for close to 50 years and it still confuses me...

perkeleellinen · Nov 30, 2020

It seems that the important part is how it goes onto the take up reel if you need to orientate it correctly.

Looks like my late uncle didn't bother rewinding any of his home movies after the last view in probably 1970! When he died my aunt asked if I wanted any of his gear and at that point (2003) he didn't even own a projector.

perkeleellinen · Dec 4, 2020

A question about splicing:

Tape or cement - is there any consensus?

Those splicers I see on ebay; I presume they hold the film for cement to be applied. Do they also work with tape?

Kino · Dec 4, 2020

perkeleellinen said:
A question about splicing:

Tape or cement - is there any consensus?

Those splicers I see on eBay; I presume they hold the film for cement to be applied. Do they also work with tape?

Cement splices, without a doubt, are the best if done correctly; Much more archival and permanent.

You should NOT use a cement splicer to make tape splices! The cement splice depends upon a slight overlapping of the film and the addition of two layers of tape is a surefire recipe for an aperture jam and film tear.

My suggestion is to get a good cement splicer. They are very inexpensive on eBay. Good ones include Bolex, Neumade, Maier Hancock (heated), Wollensack/Revere (what a cool design).

Film cement is harder to find but the UK used to have a staggeringly large base of home movie makers; surely it is available somewhere!

Urbanski in the USA is a good source if you run out of options: http://urbanskifilm.com/8mm.html

If you can't buy it, mix it yourself: https://www.filmkorn.org/super8data/database/articles_list/film_cement.htm

(My favorite formula is from the Silent Era and contains Banana Oil! )

More hints here: https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006011

Good tape splicers are very expensive and, in the end, tend to leave a small sticky edge on each splice that attracts dust and dirt to run through your gate and create havoc unless you clean the film every time you project it; And, if you do that, the tape splices will soon fall apart from the solvent action.

Other resources:

NFPF Film Preservation Handbook:
https://www.filmpreservation.org/preservation-basics/the-film-preservation-guide

Mainly 35mm but same principals apply: https://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/guide/handbook/repair

Good luck.

perkeleellinen · Dec 4, 2020

Thanks, Kino.

Digging around online I stumbled across a cool video:

Kino · Dec 4, 2020

That's a great video! I once owned a Super 8mm Mag Fullcoat recorder just like the one in the film. It was based on the Uher reel to reel 1/4 inch. I even once owned a Super 8mm flatbed film editor, but it never worked as advertised.

The amount of effort we burned through just to make an in-sync image was astounding...

Donald Qualls · Dec 4, 2020

Kino said:
The amount of effort we burned through just to make an in-sync image was astounding...

As someone who hasn't seen speech in sync with lip movements on his desktop in years (because of a delay in the Linux driver for nVidia, I think -- sound runs ahead of the picture), I don't think the effort is that astounding...

Kino · Dec 4, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
As someone who hasn't seen speech in sync with lip movements on his desktop in years (because of a delay in the Linux driver for nVidia, I think -- sound runs ahead of the picture), I don't think the effort is that astounding...

Try shooting and editing film with separate mag fullcoat sometime; you'll change your mind real quick...

Donald Qualls · Dec 4, 2020

Kino said:
Try shooting and editing film with separate mag fullcoat sometime; you'll change your mind real quick...

Separate sound is why clappers were invented, but if it's all the same, I'd just as soon keep the sound on the same media as the picture.

Help with standard 8 projection

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency