Help with old movie camera purchase

I'm hoping this is the correct place to post this. I'd like to try some old movie camera for which b+w film is available and that I can process myself.

I've absolutely no idea what I should consider and searches on ebay are confusing me.

My budget would be about $600 USD for camera plus developing tank/reels etc.

Can anyone please advise which format would be best for my needs.

We probably don't have a lot of movie makers here. But I have used an Arriflex S. I bought and sold a Canon Scoopic which was in superb condition.

Try googling "16mm filmmaking" and "16mm film making"

Bell and Howell spring-wind 16mm cameras are good, solid, and very cheap. You put a 100ft roll, shoot, and send it to a lab to process for great convenience. I haven't tried to develop any moton-picture film by myself, though.

Do you know anyone doing it locally? The advice you could get is perhaps from a local film school in your area if there are still "real" film classes being offered...

16mm gets expensive really fast. I tried it with a Krasnogorsk 3 I purchased in Eastern Europe in the 1980s, but had to sell the camera, because I couldn't keep up with the film costs.

If you are interested in Super-8, there are lots of film options now. I have a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII, which is the sort of camera that will appeal to a still shooter--lots of manual control (many cheap Super-8 cameras have only automatic ISO settings at 40 and 160 and limited exposure control). If you go that route, be sure it has a working battery or budget around $100 for a replacement battery.

If you want to process your own film, there is a Ukrainian guy who sells Lomo tanks that can do 8mm, 16mm, and 35mm. Hunt around, and you'll find him.

For Super-8 I highly recommend the Bolex splicer.

Be sure also to budget for an editor/viewer and a projector.

I've found the best deals on film from John Schwind (google him to find his webpage, and then e-mail--he has items that aren't listed on the website).

Check out filmshooting.com for lots of info on small-gauge filmaking.

not sure if you know about the huge 8mm page ...
http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/
not sure how often the page is revised over the years
but it might be helpful ...



good luck!
john

As a person who has spent the last 30 years of their life in and around motion picture cameras, film and laboratories, let me say (for what it is worth) that I think you should concentrate on making images and leave the processing to a good professional lab.

Why? More uniform results at a cheaper price than you can do it yourself.

Believe me, I have been down that "home move processing" road and it certainly is not cheap, consistent or efficient to process that way.

The tanks are cumbersome, the chemistry (especially the bleach for reversal) can be skin-peeling and noxious and the inordinate amount of time and money required to buy all the raw materials, set it up and get your first results are, in the end, NOT WORTH IT!

If you botch processing a roll, you eat the cost of everything; if a pro lab botches it, at least they replace the raw stock and generally give you a refund on your processing charges...

Now that I have said that, I know you will totally ignore me, so here is good link on home processing; http://www.geocities.com/gselinsky/FAQ.htm

This will make you nuts if you shoot Super 8mm...Dead Link Removed

Good luck.

WRT processing, I'm with Kino.

I disagree strongly with David about the wisdom of buying a used Beaulieu. Yes they're lovely. Yes they offer full control. Yes they are C-mount so can use all sorts of lenses. But they're flaky and repairs are expensive.

I say this from experience, having bought three (4008ZM, 4008ZM2, 5008S-MS) of which I still have the last two. After I sent ZM2 and 5008 to France for very expensive overhauls -- I won't say how much, but your budget won't cover the cost -- they ran fairly well but as purchased they were all disasters. The ZM2 never gave the claimed 70 fps.

If you must go Super8, buy a copy of Lenny Lipton's The Super8 Book. Its a useful guide to S8 cameras made up to the book's publication date. The book idea I took away from it is that one in three of the cameras Lipton tested was DOA. And he started with new cameras, not used ones.

If you want to go S8, consider a Canon 310XL. This is a pretty robust stalinist sort of camera -- one speed, guess focus, doesn't tell you what its doing -- with a very good 8.5-27.5/1.0 lens. They shoot well with the w/a adapter too. Within their limitations, my 310XLs produced better footage than my Beaulieus.

If you want to go 8/8, think Bolex.

I vaguely thought about obtaining a Beaulieu of the 4000 range too. But, at least at the net, you encounter warnings not only about the power supply but also about the mechanics. They seem to be bitchy. Fine as long they work, but… I’m daring concerning mechanics but never ever did anything on cine mechanics. I know that the Wittner company have purchased the huge Beaulieu spare inventory. So there would be new parts for the worst case. But could they be maintenanced/repaired without being Beaulieuwise one of the chosen few?

Kino said:

As a person who has spent the last 30 years of their life in and around motion picture cameras, film and laboratories, let me say (for what it is worth) that I think you should concentrate on making images and leave the processing to a good professional lab.

Why? More uniform results at a cheaper price than you can do it yourself.

Believe me, I have been down that "home move processing" road and it certainly is not cheap, consistent or efficient to process that way.

Click to expand...

I was reading "From Dry Plates to Ektachrome Film" by C.E.K. Mees and on the chapter about amateur filmmaking he noted that Eastman Kodak decided from the start to ensure processing of amateur films. Pathé had many customers complain that they were not getting consistent enough results, and ended up returning the film to Pathé for processing.

An interesting detail about reversal film processing he mentions is that they eventually discovered that re-exposure should be adapted to the density of the negative image, so they had to do clip tests and densitometer measurements in order to properly fog the film (bad summary from my part, I know!). Not the kind of job I'd like to do at home.

AgX, power supplies for 4008 Beaulieus are easy to make. I used a 2.1 AH 7.2v NiCd pack made for a radio controlled model car, connected it to the camera via a hacked Beaulieu cable and a Beaulieu battery dummy. IIRC, the camera wants a connection to the battery pack's - pole, + 3.6v, and + 7.2v. With a different hacked cable I used the same battery pack for my 5008. Much less expensive than having a Beaulieu battery recelled and much much greater capacity too.

The 4008 and 5008 battery dummies have different connectors. I ended up with two hacked Beaulieu cables, each with the same "battery side" connector that mated to my battery pack's connector, if you see what I mean.

I can't advise on do it yourself repairs. You might ask Wittner if they offer service too. Here in the US we have to use Super8 Sound (sorry, not the name they now use). I sent my cameras to France for service, with the help of a friend in Paris, because Beaulieu believed that S8 Sound didn't have the parts etc. to do good work on such old cameras.

At one point I bought a very inexpensive used ZC-1000 with 7.5-75/1.8 with the idea of getting a 4008 without lens and using the Fuji lens on it, but then lucked into a ZM2 with 6-66 Schneider. 6 mm is much more useful than 7.5. The ZC-1000 is a beautiful camera, but I'm not aware -- haven't looked, though -- of anyone offering reloadable Single 8 cartridges or Single 8 film for that matter.

Breaks my heart to see these sales. This is the same little camera that was sent into outer space. 16mm 400 foot rolls. I just threw half a dozen of them away and I have film rotting in the freezer. We'll never use them again. I wish I could send them to folks like you that want to play, but that's not how our govt works, and that is also as it should be. This Milliken is a 16mm 125 or 400 foot. It will run reliably at 500 fps (although that would be expensive for a hobbiest . There is also quite a lot of ood film getting dumped these days on ebay so your main expense would be processing fees. I wouldn't try to do it myself unless I bought a Houston Peerless processor on ebay and had a lot of space.

Super Reveral Film is the way to go. Kodak still makes PLus-X, Tri-X, and Ektachrome 64T. You need to make sure to get a camera which will meter the Color properly. Nikon Bauer, and even Minolta made some great Super 8 cameras. Don't need to pay for a pro model.

Fintan said:

I'm hoping this is the correct place to post this. I'd like to try some old movie camera for which b+w film is available and that I can process myself.

I've absolutely no idea what I should consider and searches on ebay are confusing me.

My budget would be about $600 USD for camera plus developing tank/reels etc.

Can anyone please advise which format would be best for my needs.

Click to expand...

jimgalli said:

Breaks my heart to see these sales. This is the same little camera that was sent into outer space. 16mm 400 foot rolls. I just threw half a dozen of them away and I have film rotting in the freezer. We'll never use them again. I wish I could send them to folks like you that want to play, but that's not how our govt works, and that is also as it should be. This Milliken is a 16mm 125 or 400 foot. It will run reliably at 500 fps (although that would be expensive for a hobbiest . There is also quite a lot of ood film getting dumped these days on ebay so your main expense would be processing fees. I wouldn't try to do it myself unless I bought a Houston Peerless processor on ebay and had a lot of space.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I just chucked about 3000' feet of Eastman VNF long-pitch (.3000') on 100' daylight spools I had horded for my Fastax; can't get it processed any more and it was probably starting to fog anyway...

I was holding on to the Fastax, hoping to find a Goose unit, but now that is a moot point. Looks like it will become a very expensive paperweight or just rot in my basement...

In college, we used to have fun blowing up things with firecrackers and filming them with a fastax and a goose unit.

No more, alas!

Dan,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. Yes, getting some modern rechargeable batteries connected to one of those cameras wouldn’t be a problem to me, but budgeting serious workmanship well. If I obtained such a camera it would be for play only (serious play…). For any other work I would rent professional 16mm gear. (The German custom authorities just sold an old Arriflex HS 16 SR kit for about 6000€… not bargains everywhere.)

An other issue with 8mm, and I think this would be of interest to Fintan too, is the DOF issue with that small format. Any comment on this?

Well, you've got lots of DOF in general with Super-8, but there are some fast lenses out there in the f:0.9-1.4 range that let you get a little selective focus.

I guess I'm fortunate to be in New York, where care and feeding of the Beaulieu doesn't require overseas shipping. I do have to have the camera looked at for a couple of minor things, so I'll report back if it turns out to be a major repair bill.

Wow, a lot more film makers here than I would have guessed.

Thanks for all the posts, I've been googling all the suggestions.

I'm still not sure what format to go for though and I suppose until I decide that, then I wont be wise looking at models.

On pure looks I did like the Bolex [but I know looks dont matter too much] One Bolex I saw on the web looked like a camera The Edge from U2 had on some video or other [was it Rattle and Hum]. Anyway I have a new swear-word

Any idea where I could find the pros and cons of each format on the interweb??

I have to disagree with some of the comments on the Beaulieu cameras.

I have a 4008ZM Super8 and an R16 16mm.

In particular with the super8 camera, the Beaulieu is the only camera that is like a real scaled down proper Movie camera - you get a proper aperture ring and a mirrored shutter etc etc.

The advantage of them is that they are easy to service because they are designed to be serviced and, critically, there is a supply of parts. You just have to have them done by the right person. The only tricky thing is that there are only a few people factory trained to handle them (although others who are not factory trained, but still good)

The best is Bjorn Andersson in Sweden - he has a huge stock of parts and handles repairs and service work from all over the world. He has serviced both my cameras - the 4008 cost about £200 to do.

Both operate brilliantly and up to their max frame rate (70 and 64 respectively)

I recently took the R16 on a ski trip and snowboarded with it in a Lowpro rucksack or hand held and it performed flawlessly, even at high altitude (13,000ft)

As regards cost I have to say I now shoot more 16mm then super8 as the cost, today, is about the same - in Europe at least. With 16mm I can buy direct from Fuji for £15 +vat / 100ft. and have it processed in London by Soho images (overnight if I want) for 0.10p /ft. I then have the negative scanned on a Rank Cintel at a post production house near where I live in Birmingham.

However this is all for colour neg and I haven't bought any B+W for ages.

So my vote woudl probably go for 16mm - there is a much wider array of factory packed film too, and more labs that handle it.

A great website to look at and ask some questions would be www.filmshooting.com

Matt

But for the price of a `professional´ Super8 camera you wouldn't get a professinal 16mm camera.
Or would that comparison not be apt?

It would be a very difficult comparison, as you suggest.

Not all Beaulieus are built like the 4008 series. I had a couple of 7008 versions, one of which was crystal controlled. Unreliable and expensive - they could not be trusted for professional work without a backup. I still have a 6008, but I wouldn't use it for a professional job.

The Beaulieus are not the only cameras with a 'proper aperture ring', and I'm not sure that a mirror reflex system/shutter is inherently better all-round than a beamsplitter.

My personal preference as the best all-round Super 8 camera ever made is the Nizo 6080. It is very quiet for a Super 8 camera, and can usually be found with a simple matte box/shade system.

The Leicina Special is worth considering - if it fits your purposes. I find mine to be very good for animation, time lapse/time exposure and stop motion. It takes Leica M lenses - which is not all that useful in practice. It is fairly noisy. Film speed is set manually (unusual for a Super 8 camera) and it has interchangeable viewing screens at the turn of a knob (unique among all reflex cameras, both movie and still?)

If you are going to transfer to video, and you wish to maintain sync for sound, it might be an idea to check what frame rates are available. Though most Super 8 cameras are not crystal controlled (ie accurate to between 3 ppm and 5 ppm - parts per million - in speed) they do have sufficiently good speed control for short takes in sync without using pulse tone for later synching.

Some cameras, like the Leicina Special and many of the Nizos, have 16⅔ and 25 fps as set speeds. That is 50/3 and 50/2 - ie each film frame can be transferred to exactly 3 or 2 PAL video fields with no skip and no fancy equipment.

One of the big questions should be whether or not you want the capability of shooting sound. If you do, then an old 16 mm camera like an Eclair NPR might be the thing. Extremely reliable, fairly quiet (quieter than the quietest Super 8 camera I've ever used - the aforementioned 6080 - but not studio quiet), takes C-mount and Cameflex-mount lenses, has a viewfinder that makes any Super 8 camera look like a toy, very fast magazine change with 400 ft loads, and heavy. For not much more money, but much better in a number of ways, there are the Aatons, beginning with the LTR varieties.

I think that the Eclairs and early Aatons are slightly better cameras than the early Arri SRs at the lower-price indy end of the sound camera market (ie cameras suitable for use with seperate sound) especially if you want to do a lot of hand-holding (ahhh, sweet), but Arris aren't so bad and they are much more plentiful in many places - Eclairs and Aatons are very rare in some parts of the world I've been to.

If you don't require a quiet camera or quick-change magazines then look at Bolex H16s. Real system cameras with a lot of advantages at remarkably low prices. They don't have pin registration, but they manage quite well without it.

Best,
Helen