Help with my dilemma..

Sirius Glass · Nov 23, 2009

fattyale said:
And really, are Kievs that bad?

No, worse!

Look at a Tamrac 750 or 752 backpack. They put the weight on the hips.

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Steve

fschifano · Nov 23, 2009

Q.G. said:
Nah... Just keep the RB.

Yeah, that's the way. You've got some of the best already.

paul ron · Nov 23, 2009

Yeah keep the RB. As long as that's what you want to hear. I've been using n repairing RBs for a long time n love em. My recomendation was based on your call for action. RBs aren't for everyone. It's an aquired taste that grows on ya making you wonder how anyone would use a car without a clutch.

The Bronica is a beautiful system of fine glass n tight standards. The camera is a perfect palm MF and 645 still keeps it in the large neg catagory. The results are comparable to the 6x7 unless of course you are making building size photos. A 16x20 won't show much difference.

For faster action I like to use the ETRS with a fast focus lever I've adapted from a Kowa or Omega Rapid, and a speed grip. It balances very nicely and is very ergonomicaly designed.

Get the manual here.....
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/bronica/bronica_etrs/bronica_etrs.htm

Anscojohn · Nov 23, 2009

fattyale said:
Didn't expect the huge response. And thanks for all the advice!

And really, are Kievs that bad?

***
Keep the RB. Perhaps get a monopod.
In answer to your last queston, I can only answer based on my own experience. I have had zero problems with my Kiev 88 body. Granted, I do not use it heavily. I have a Pentax 6x7 as well as a 500C. The Kiev does not have the fit, feel, and finish of a contemporary Hassy, but it works just fine. I sent the old 45mm WA (bought well used) to Gevorg at ARAX for overhaul; needed a CLA on the prime Arsat lens. Have a big beast of a 250 for it. Two 6x6 backs and a 645 back. It is fun to use, and if it falls out of an airplane, or whatever, well, whatever. I bought it to see if I liked the handling of a Hassy body after a parade of Yashica Rollei, Mamiya TLRs and the Pentax 6x7. I found the shape and handling o.k.
IIRC correctly, the instruction manual for the Kiev 88 specifically says that it is a camera for amateur photographers.
Would I sell the Kiev 88 outfit and put the money into a couple of Hassy filters and a downpayment on a 150 Sonnar? Probably not.

2F/2F · Nov 23, 2009

2F/2F said:
...Pick up a Kiev or a Pentacon Six if you want a 6x6 non-system SLR...

My mistake. I thought you were talking about the Kiev 60 for some reason. Thus, the term "non-system" does not really apply, because you do get a lot of the benefits of a Hassy-like system with the Kiev 88. I meant "non-system" to mean "fixed-back", because I thought you were talking about the 60, which is more like a Pentacon Six/Pentax 67-style camera.

Still, I would not replace an RB with any Kiev if a little bit of hand holdability is what you are after. I would get the Kiev cheap for fun, perhaps, but not as a replacement for an RB. I would be more inclined to suggest a Yashica or Rollei TLR for what you are describing, or maybe a Bronica S2 or SQ if you want interchangeable lenses and backs and such. Kievs are hit or miss from what I hear. You could get a good one and you could get a bad one...and who knows if you can find anyone around town to work on them well.

fattyale · Nov 23, 2009

Thanks for the bag recommendations Steve. Will look into them! LowePros aren't as good as Tamrac?

And yes I'll keep the RB and perhaps get a monopod first like what Anscojohn suggested.

As for the Bronica paul ron and 2F/2F discussed, I read that the S series lens selection aren't that wide. Max 50mm am I right? And the system is about 100-200 bucks more than a Kiev 88? And the ETR-S is a 6x4.5 format right? I'd very much prefer a 6x6. From where I'm going, someone will suggest a TLR..

Right now getting a Kiev 88 for a handheld/vacation/cheapfisheyelens/affordable is very viable to me (Some guy selling a set at 210-230 at the bay). But it will be VERY frustrating if the camera breaks on you while on a trip after hearing how erratic/unreliable it is. I know my RB67 won't. *crossesfingers*

2F/2F · Nov 23, 2009

Well, if the fisheye is calling you, and that is your main motivation, go for it...but check out the APUG classifieds first. There is a Pentacon Six with a fisheye that I wish I could afford right now.....but I just got another Linhof, so I cannot.

mrred · Nov 23, 2009

Maris said:
By the time you have cropped the 6x6 negative that comes out of a Kiev 88cm or a Hasselblad into a landscape or portrait rectangle it becomes the same size as 645 negative.

Why crop? You do know they have 645 backs... (I have one)...

mrred · Nov 23, 2009

fattyale said:
Right now getting a Kiev 88 for a handheld/vacation/cheapfisheyelens/affordable is very viable to me (Some guy selling a set at 210-230 at the bay). But it will be VERY frustrating if the camera breaks on you while on a trip after hearing how erratic/unreliable it is. I know my RB67 won't. *crossesfingers*

Make sure you get a 88CM (pentacon 6 lens mount). They are much better (and reliable).

fattyale · Nov 23, 2009

You got me. The fisheye is a main motivation. I cannot afford a Sekor one for my RB67. It's like 1000 bucks. Luckily I didn't go into Hasselblads..

But can the 88CM fit the old lenses made for the 88? (I'm thinking this a very stupid question but I need the confirmation haha)

And don't get the 88? Are there serious differences other than the mount type?

mrred · Nov 23, 2009

fattyale said:
But can the 88CM fit the old lenses made for the 88? (I'm thinking this a very stupid question but I need the confirmation haha)

And don't get the 88? Are there serious differences other than the mount type?

The mounts between the 88 and the 88cm are vastly different, and that's why I have one of each. The CM uses the pentacon6 mount and has much more modern (and abundant) glass available for it. Most good lens avaialbe on the 88 are also available on the 88cm.

The lens(s) for the 88 are older, as they have not made that shutter box for a while.

The biggest difference is the CM is a newer updated design, thus it just works better. There are better accessories because it's better supported.

Should you cry if you have an 88? No, but you will probably wind up wanting an 88cm too...

fattyale · Nov 24, 2009

But the 88CM can use lenses that are made for the 88 right? And I'm considering this set. Is it worth it or I should i just fork out a hundred more and get the 88CM?

Seriously guys, thanks for all the help and advice.

And I went to a camera store today and messed around a Kiev 88 but the logo says 'HUBB 88" if I remember correctly. They are built like a little tank! But doesn't feel as friendly as a Hasselblad but I'm asking too much.

mrred · Nov 24, 2009

fattyale said:
But the 88CM can use lenses that are made for the 88 right?.

They are not interchangeable.

The seller you are using is the right source for the camera. That's where I got my 88cm and I have not had any problems with it. They really did do a great job on the CLA.

If you are bent on an 88, that is a good deal and a good source. I would still go for the 88CM (from the same seller) as future lens offerings will be broader. But that is your choice.

On a note. I picked up my 88 shutter box for $100 from the Ukrane. It was not CLA'd and I got it for an older 250mm lens I bought by mistake (not Pent6 mount). Periodicly the shutter sticks so sometime I need to get it CLA. This put me in a position that I can still use the old lens if I want to. I just use my 88cm for my main one.

You can PM me if you have any questions after your purchace.

paul ron · Nov 24, 2009

Ah so it comes down to a fish eye, not a camera system.

You'll have fun with the Ruskies camera. I had a 6 or 66 a few years ago, sold it cheap to get rid of it, it was just too much fun.

It may seem solid, but look out, it's not really. The factories based their output by weight, not units produced. So it'll be heavy because they loaded their units with lead n made em all heavy to feel like quality but it's dead weight. Metal shutter curtains?

Anyway take the RB as your standby camera.

Mike1234 · Nov 24, 2009

It might be worth keeping the RB and also buying the 88CM just for using the fisheye which is a very nice lens, BTW, but I've seen an aperture fail in the 4 or 5 that have passed through my hands... may have just beenj a fluke though... luck of the draw.

mrred · Nov 24, 2009

Mike1234 said:
It might be worth keeping the RB and also buying the 88CM just for using the fisheye which is a very nice lens, BTW, but I've seen an aperture fail in the 4 or 5 that have passed through my hands... may have just beenj a fluke though... luck of the draw.

The failure would be the lens or the shutter box?

Mike1234 · Nov 24, 2009

None... it's the availability of a 30mm fish at minimal expense vs. proven reliability of the RB/RZ.

Doc W · Nov 24, 2009

fattyale said:
Seems like the right thing to do is keep to RB67 & invest in tripod & another lightweight camera (C330/Kiev88/Bronica?)

And to respond to some posts.

I'd love to use a tripod but I'm taking public trains & buses most of the time. But I understand that using a tripod gives pictures that are a lot better than hand holding it due to handshake. But I'll definitely invest in a good one in the future.

I had the same problem with my RB and a tripod. I bought the RB for vacation or travel that is not specifically for photography (when I take a photo vacation, I bring my 4x5 and 8x10). On vacation, I don't drive so it is bus/subway/taxi, same as you. The RB in a backpack with accessories is a load, but do-able. The tripod takes it over the edge, in my opinion, and not because of weight only. I suppose if you got a tripod that was very light and folded up very small, it would work. Otherwise, don't bother. It is nothing but a PITA.

This does limit what you can shoot, of course. I can't hand-hold the RB below 1/125 unless I prop it up against a fence or lie it on a park bench or something. But then I can't shoot everything with my 8x10. It is all about compromise.

There are solutions of course - the Mamiya 7 is a good one - but you are on a budget and they are not cheap.

keithwms · Nov 24, 2009

Well I have the rb fisheye and it is worth every penny. Let's see, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) is a shot with it. Can you even tell it was a fish?

You know what, you can take the rb fisheye and put it on a (sturdy!) 5x7 camera and see the whole image circle. You may want to file off the built-in hood though. Another nutty thing I do is put a kaidan 360 on my rb. I bought the rb 90mm specifically for that.

photobum · Nov 24, 2009

Um, well another nutty thing Keith does is drive a car powered by french fry oil, but I digress. Two posters have compared price wise, a used Kiev vs. a new Hasselblad. Talk about apples and oranges. $900 for a film back? Get real or better yet, get the KEH catalog. A 12 back exc. cond. $119. A bit more for a A-12.

You want wide, how about a Hasselblad SWC/M for $1950. That's for a Biogon lens and a bulletproof body and finder. Is it more money than you might want to spend? Maybe but you will always be able to sell it for about the same amount. Remember there are two things you can't get rid of, AIDS and KIEV.

A 'Blad, Bron, Mamiya, Rollie etc. will bring pleasure, dependabilty and resale value.

johnnywalker · Nov 24, 2009

I bought a RB67 recently and love it. I also bought a small padded backpack for it, and put in the padded dividers myself, using foam strips I covered with cloth and glued in place with fabric glue (a suggestion on another thread on APUG). The camera is six pounds with the lens. It's not that heavy, but it is fairly big. It's very easy to carry with the backpack. I like Anscojohn's idea of the monopod for a city and public transportation and would get one if I were lucky enough to live in Singapore. I haven't been there since they moved the Long Bar.

fattyale · Nov 24, 2009

Thanks mrred for the advice given for the Kiev 88/CM. So if I'm using the 88 system I'll look for the Arsat ones? Am I right? Or how can i tell the difference between them? And I'll be getting it from that guy.

And paul ron, the fish eye is one of the main reasons. Kievs are affordable (for a student..), 5 times cheaper fisheye lens comapred to the Mamiya's and I need a lighter-weight system for travels.

Doc W, you got it! PITA carrying extras! And don't get me wrong, I love my RB67 and I won't be dumping it. And hand holding is alright for now cause I usually shoot wide open for outdoor portraits.

photobum I get your point. I've a guy that always tells me this, ' Go for a great camera system even when you're just starting out! This way you won't look back!'. But by the time I can afford a Hassy, it will take about a year for me to save up (girlfriend..). And I'm sure a 'Blad, Bron, Mamiya, Rollie etc. will bring pleasure, dependability and resale value. Heck it even feels great to hold them, like an old friend.

Anscojohn · Nov 24, 2009

fattyale said:
Thanks mrred for the advice given for the Kiev 88/CM. So if I'm using the 88 system I'll look for the Arsat ones? Am I right? Or how can i tell the difference between them? And I'll be getting it from that guy.
*******
Some of the newer Kievs have the mount which takes the Pentacon lenses. This opens up a realm of possibilities in lenses. I have the ARSAT lenses only.

If you are interested in the feel of a Kiev (Hasselblad 1600 clone) I shall lend you my Kiev 88 outfit so you can see first=hand if the Kiev 88 series suits you at all. PM me

fattyale · Nov 24, 2009

Anscojohn said:
If you are interested in the feel of a Kiev (Hasselblad 1600 clone) I shall lend you my Kiev 88 outfit so you can see first=hand if the Kiev 88 series suits you at all. PM me

That's really nice! But I live in Singapore so.. I don't think that's possible.

And don't worry, I'll look around some shops and maybe buy them a beer or 2 then try the camera out.

Really, thanks for the offer Anscojohn

Erwin Baeyens · Nov 25, 2009

paul ron said:
...The factories based their output by weight, not units produced. ...Metal shutter curtains?
.

The weight statement is just a myth, the soviet production plans where based on usable units(as in meter, liter, m³...); camera's where expressed in units produced. What would have been the use of a ton of cameras, or a maybe 700 grains of corn?
The metal shutters aren't used any more since the early 90-s .
The later Kiev 88cm and the Kiev 60 (35 mm slr shaped ) are much more reliable. As a general rule the Kiev 60 and derivative camera's are more sound than the 88 types due to a less complex film transport mechanism.
There are more lens options for the Pentacon 6 mount equipped cameras like the Kiev 88CM

Help with my dilemma..

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