Help with my dilemma..

fattyale · Nov 23, 2009

So I got my Mamiya RB67. With a 120 6x7 back, a Polaroid back and just got a Graflex RH-12 for 6x6. All of these about 3 months ago?

And I just stumbled onto Kiev 88s.

Thing is, I love using the RB67. Quality and it's built is simply amazing. Except that it's really heavy and I'm starting sweat it. I always hand-hold it and bring it out for outdoor shoots. (Not a studio photographer & don't own a tripod). But now I'm thinking I can't really lug it all around when I go for vacations/trips elsewhere.

The Kiev 88 is very appealing right now because it's really cheap (I'm an accounting student) and their lenses are very affordable. Especially the Arsat 30mm fisheye. A Hassy would be lovely but it's way too expensive.

So the main question is, should I sell off my RB67 and purchase a Kiev 88 set with probably 2-3 lenses from the money? And what about quality? Will I lose the vibrant colors & sharpness of the RB67?

Oh and I mainly shoot portraits and I absolutely love the distortion of a fisheye lens.

Mike1234 · Nov 23, 2009

Sorry to disappoint but I would not buy the Kiev because it's not well built... just too unreliable. However, the 30mm ARSAT is a nice lens and you can get an adapter to use it on the RB.

JBrunner · Nov 23, 2009

I've got a busted one (speeds over 1/30 don't shutter IRRC) with a couple of lenses. You can have the whole shootin match for $100.

Joe Grodis · Nov 23, 2009

OMG!! RB67 is along the line of "Hassy" caliber, while the Kiev 88 is more or less similar to a Kodak instamatic quality wise but, now that I think about it, I have an Instamatic here that still works.

fattyale · Nov 23, 2009

A lot of negativity on the Kiev 88.. How about their lenses? Am I going to expect a Zorki/Fed kinda image there?

And yeah the RB67 is really lovely! But for a non-professional, outdoor shooting, brings his cameras out, accounting student person like me, the RB67 isn't suited to my usage..

loman · Nov 23, 2009

Lens quality in the kiev line up is generally very very good with the usual ifs (if the lens hasn't been mistreated etc.). It's the build quality that's the problem, and the sample variation is huge.

photobum · Nov 23, 2009

You mention quality twice. The reason to go from 35mm (film or digital) to M/F or L/F is for the quality of the larger negative. To get a better negative the best thing you can do is buy, then use, a tripod. Carrying a RB mounted on a pod over the shoulder is not such a big deal. Trading a RB for a Kiev would be a serious mistake. Not because of the lenses but the quality of the camera.

If you cannot afford a Hasselblad and still want lighter weight think TLR. Yeah, I know that limits you to one lens but a few "OK" lenses and a camera made from used Russian tin cans does not fill me with confidence.

Allen Friday · Nov 23, 2009

You might consider the Mamiya TLR cameras. Some of them (the 330 I think) offer interchangeable lenses. They are inexpensive, well made and light weight compared to the RB.

pdebruin · Nov 23, 2009

If the weight is getting you down (and I don't blame you), why not trade for a 645 or 66 instead? I have used the mamiya 645 and loved it, but there are plenty of options (Bronica?). It should work out a little cheaper too, as long as you don't go for the latest models. At least you will be getting something with proven quality and reliability, and they (and the lenses) are easy to find second hand too. You could even go for an MF rangefinder of some sort, I've used the Fuji ones and found them to be excellent.
Piete

Mike1234 · Nov 23, 2009

Maybe a 645 system with an advance grip is more to your liking... Mamiya M645, Bronica ETR-S, etc. The smaller size and grips make them handle much easier/quicker than a RB type system... not quite like a 135 but pretty close.

Doc W · Nov 23, 2009

It is all relative. I use an RB67 as my vacation camera because the wife won't let me bring the LF gear, lol. When I am walking with her, I carry only the camera with one lens (90mm) and one back. If the subject doesn't fit the format, I don't shoot it.

When my wife is off shopping, however, I backpack the RB with a lot more accessories. I agree that the RB is a PIG to try to carry unless you get the right backback. I got a decent used LowePro that holds the RB, two lenses, two backs, filters and miscellania. It is relatively easy to carry unless you take really really long hikes up and down hills. I am 60 and not an athlete by any stretch, yet I had not too much trouble lugging this all over Manhattan for a week, 5-6 hours at a time.

I don't bring a tripod because we usually take the train on vacation, not a car, and the tripod can be a pain with all the other luggage. I bought a monopod for my last NYC trip, but honestly, it wasn't worth it.

Jeff Kubach · Nov 23, 2009

Simple, just save you money and buy a tripod. Fo me a tripod is one of the best gadgets for photography.

Jeff

mrred · Nov 23, 2009

Bashing Russian tin cans? Sorry bud, they are made from tanks. I have two, one 88 and one 88cm. The 'cm' is the one you want.

Say what you will, the 88cm is new. You can still buy parts and it won't cost you your first born.

The Hassy simply is not worth that much money. 900+ for a film back (b&h)? Dream on.

I bought a Kiev 88cm, CLA'd, re flocked and brought into spec, 80mm lens and 2 6x6 backs delivered for less than 400. edit: >:It also cam with a flip up view finder and a Prism/Light Meter :< I bought a 250mm lens for 150 and a new 2x mult for 125. I bought a 645 back for 100. 25 for two extension tubes. Hmm, a new hassy is 4k-5k. How many can I go through before I match the cost of a new Hassy?

The bottom line is it's about the film and glass. The glass is very good and you won't be disappointed. The box has personality and you should get one that has been CLA'd. After that, it's a fun box.

Yes, I have owned a Hassy and I would not waste money on that again. It is a good camera, just not *that* good. But then again, I wouldn't spend more than 30k on a car either.

Q.G. · Nov 23, 2009

The money thing?
900+ for a film back?

That is a lot to fork out, yes.
But if you consider that 30, 40 years old, even older, backs still are in regular use today.
Same for lenses, cameras, viewfinders, etc.

Sure, they need to be serviced once in a while.

But if you spread out the costs over the period these thingies will work for you, it will become clear that the cheap to buy stuff is indeed the more expensive stuff.

So the bottom line is about how long you hope to be using your camera.
Because sooner or later (rather sooner with Kievs - whether rebuild or not) you will indeed reach the point where you not only match the cost of more expensive gear (be it Hasselblad, Mamiya or Rollei), but pay more for the pleasure of having bought the cheap stuff.

No matter how often it is heard: being cheap does not make up for poor quality.

Sirius Glass · Nov 23, 2009

Mike1234 said:
Sorry to disappoint but I would not buy the Kiev because it's not well built... just too unreliable. However, the 30mm ARSAT is a nice lens and you can get an adapter to use it on the RB.

Dammit Mike, you finally screwed up and did it!

We agreed on something.

Damn!

Steve

Maris · Nov 23, 2009

I reckon stick with the Mamiya RB67; I did.

By the time you have cropped the 6x6 negative that comes out of a Kiev 88cm or a Hasselblad into a landscape or portrait rectangle it becomes the same size as 645 negative. That's only 2.7x bigger than 35mm. The rectangular RB67 negative needs minimal cropping and, in effect, is nearly twice as big. This you can see in your pictures!

By far the sharpest lens in your camera bag is the tripod. Every hand held shot has some camera shake. Sometimes is it so fine you may not see it and sometimes it is gross. But you will never know which, if any, frame is trashed until after the shoot when the negatives go on the light box. Re-shoot, anyone?

Instead of hand holding cameras become an expert tripod prestidigitator. After you have set up and taken down a tripod a few hundred times you will be able to do it in seconds in your sleep. Ok, I'm biassed. I haven't hand- held a single shot since 1977.

Q.G. · Nov 23, 2009

Maris said:
I reckon stick with the Mamiya RB67; I did.

By the time you have cropped the 6x6 negative that comes out of a Kiev 88cm or a Hasselblad [...]

When will that be?

Maris said:
Instead of hand holding cameras become an expert tripod prestidigitator. After you have set up and taken down a tripod a few hundred times you will be able to do it in seconds in your sleep. Ok, I'm biassed. I haven't hand- held a single shot since 1977.

That's the way! Good show, and all that!

2F/2F · Nov 23, 2009

Not much of a dilemma as I see it. Don't sell the RB. The Kiev won't let you do much (if any) better hand held. Pick up a Kiev or a Pentacon Six if you want a 6x6 non-system SLR, but not as a way to replace an RB...because it will not. You don't need to dive in all at once. Get a body and a normal lens, and see if you like it. Add more lenses later if you do, and sell it later if you do not. BTW, they are big and heavy too, like an RB. If you are after size and weight savings, I think a Hassy or a Mamiya, Pentax, or Bronica 645 system would be a better move.

Q.G. · Nov 23, 2009

But be sure to sell it while it still works.

keithwms · Nov 23, 2009

RB to Kiev? I don't think that is the way to go. Say more about the weight issues. Is the RB gear literally too heavy, too cumbersome, or too limiting in shutter speeds etc.? It seems to me that a bronnie or mamiya 645 or such may be the answer. Going from RB to Kiev, I don't mean to offend anybody because I know there are some reliable Kievs out there, but... they are not noted for that quality. The RB on the other hand is very robust. So it might be a frustrating switch. Best to try out a loaner and be sure it's for you.

Consider also the rz, which can take the rb lenses. Sounds to me like, cost wise, a mamiya 645 pro or such may be the answer. Now that is a very light and modular piece. You can add winder and prism if and when you don't mind the bulk, or you can go very slim and even shoot 35mm with it. It is also very affordable and reliable.

My 645 afd is currently out on loan to a wedding shooter. Based on his first experiences with it, it was a total revelation to him. In fact he may not ever give it back to me! He had tried the rb and liked it but was looking for better handholdability. Plus he likes fill, and having the possibility of fast synth with LS lenses is a definite plus. He liked the pro as well but was attracted to the integrated prism/finder. If it were me, I'd go with the pro, the af on the afd isn't worth the money IMHO.

Maybe you should consider a folder for those times when you really don't want any significant weight or bulk.

paul ron · Nov 23, 2009

Forget about the Russian camera. Sell the RB and get a Bronica ETRS and a few lenses and you'll fall in love again with your camera. Reliable, small and fun to use. Sharp as a tac n handels real nice with a speed grip. Put a focusing lever on it form a Kowa or HAssy and you'll have a blast.

Q.G. · Nov 23, 2009

Nah... Just keep the RB.

Sirius Glass · Nov 23, 2009

Q.G. said:
Nah... Just keep the RB.

What he said.

Steve

Mike1234 · Nov 23, 2009

Sirius Glass said:
Dammit Mike, you finally screwed up and did it!

We agreed on something.

Damn!

Steve

You can't be Sirius. Damn it all!!! I feel so... feel so... USED!!!

fattyale · Nov 23, 2009

Didn't expect the huge response. And thanks for all the advice!

Seems like the right thing to do is keep to RB67 & invest in tripod & another lightweight camera (C330/Kiev88/Bronica?)

And to respond to some posts.

I'd love to use a tripod but I'm taking public trains & buses most of the time. But I understand that using a tripod gives pictures that are a lot better than hand holding it due to handshake. But I'll definitely invest in a good one in the future.

The bag I'm using is a Domke J-1 so the shoulders are hurting quite a bit. And I don't have a backpack.. yet.

I've considered the 645 before but I like shooting 6x6. 6x7 is super sweet for landscapes. As for the RZ, I'm a mechanical kind of guy. That's why I bought the RB.

Can anyone fill me in qith Bronicas? Haven't done much research on them. Something fully mechanical, 6x6 I suppose?

And really, are Kievs that bad?

Help with my dilemma..

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