Help with Arches Platine

Luca · Dec 22, 2009

Arches Platine paper (from England since I live in Europe) -> pure palladium + Na2 for contrast -> Pot. Oxalate developer -> three baths of citric acid ( 1.8 liters each with three teaspoons of citric, 5+ mins each bath) = prints come out badly yellowish, no way they clear properly, they're horrible. Blacks and everything else is fine, it's just the clearing. Any Arches Platine users could please share how do you clear this paper???

Peter Schrager · Dec 22, 2009

I use Heico Hypo Clearing bath...3 oz/gallon...NEVER ever had any problems clearing ANY paper
Best, Peter

jeffreyg · Dec 22, 2009

I use Arches Platine from Bostick & Sullivan with pt/pd and develop with Ammonium Citrate 1:3 H2O FOR 1 1/2 minutes, hose off gently with the paper on a sheet of acrylic, three 5 minute baths in EDTA ( 2 table spoons + sodium sulfite 1 table spoon in 2 liters H2O face down) then gentle wash for 20 minutes. Air dry on screens. Try it , it should work -- it does for me.

jeffreyg · Dec 22, 2009

A couple of years ago I printed a limited edition series of pt/pd/au prints ( total of 12ea plus artist proof and printers proof ) 56 prints on Crane's Platinotype which is simlilar to Platine fo a photographer named Mario Algaze - check him out on the web. He has an eye like an eagle! I will now only print for myself!!! I have a portfolio on APUG. Some of my images I have also printed in pt/pd/au 4x5 as well as having enlarged negatives.

Don12x20 · Dec 22, 2009

Try making the first clearing bath of EDTA (DiSodium, not Tetrasodium), followed by two Citric baths.
My personal preference over Citric Acid baths is three baths...
1st of EDTA (Disodium)
2nd EDTA (Tetra sodium) or Citric Acid.
3rd Kodak HCA (or substitute Sodium Sulfite).

Using this, I've never had yellows with many, many years (since 1988) of Platine + Pt/Pd.

jkschreiber · Dec 22, 2009

I had the same problem when I first started using Platine in the mid '90s. None of the single ingredient clearing baths would work, no matter how strong or how long.

Kodak HCA (or similar hypo clearing products) used at regular working strength (as for film or paper) in the usual method of 3 successive clearing baths should do the trick.

To make your own clearing bath from scratch I suggest the following:

2 Liters water
2 Tbsp EDTA (tetrasodium)
1 Tbsp citric acid
1 Tbsp sodium sulfite

Add the ingredients in the order given and be sure each has fully dissolved before adding the next. The citric acid converts the EDTA to the more reactive disodium form. The sulfite seems to be the critical ingredient in getting Platine to clear properly.

Also try eliminating the water rinse between the developer and first clearing bath. In my experience, it actually has an adverse effect on clearing.

Hope this helps,
Keith
www.jkschreiber.com

Luca · Dec 22, 2009

Thank you for your help! I have tons of citric acid and a few bags of Kodak HCA. These two chemicals alone must do the job for I have no chance to buy other products until new year and I have to print before that. Any hint on how to mix them i.e. without EDTA? However you guys recommend not to try further with citric acid alone (more concentrate, more time etc.), right?

I am so disappointed right now, I have been using citric acid for years with Cranes, Socorro and even Gampi without any problem. Now that my favorite Cranes Crest (the equivalent of Cranes Platinotype in Europe) is no more available I find myself with deadlines and no way to make a decent print.

scootermm · Dec 22, 2009

Another suggestion... (if using Pot. Ox Dev) .... try leaving the print in the developer for 5+mins.
The longer time spent in the developer has always helped facilitate better and more efficient clearing for me in every instance and all the diff papers I've worked with, especially the more difficult to clear papers.

Also, another combo for the clearing baths that works well for me.
1st bath: Citric Acid mixed into some hot water (bunch per gallon)
2nd and 3rd baths (basically HCA recipe) A bunch of Sodium Sulfite and a bit of Sodium Metabisulfite per gallon of hot water.

jkschreiber · Dec 23, 2009

I agree with scootermm that leaving the print in the developer longer than the usually specified 2 minutes is beneficial. I find 3 minutes to be about right (but longer shouldn't hurt) and that most of the yellow is removed by this point, at least with K Ox developer.

Since you have Kodak HCA and citric acid on hand, first try clearing in 3 successive baths of HCA diluted 1:4 from stock. If that doesn't do the job, add some citric acid to it - maybe 1 tbsp per 2 liters.

Please let us know what ends up working for you.

- Keith

Davec101 · Dec 23, 2009

Luca said:
Arches Platine paper (from England since I live in Europe) -> pure palladium + Na2 for contrast -> Pot. Oxalate developer -> three baths of citric acid ( 1.8 liters each with three teaspoons of citric, 5+ mins each bath) = prints come out badly yellowish, no way they clear properly, they're horrible. Blacks and everything else is fine, it's just the clearing. Any Arches Platine users could please share how do you clear this paper???

I've always used Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent (30grams per litre) with Arches Platine and have not had problems clearing, i tried citric acid baths initially but like you I was left with a yellow stain. Kodak HCA will do the trick.

donbga · Dec 23, 2009

jkschreiber said:
Also try eliminating the water rinse between the developer and first clearing bath. In my experience, it actually has an adverse effect on clearing.

I agree with Keith here. Eliminating the water bath/rinse after the developer and prior to the first clearing solved a lot of clearing problems for me.

Not using a water bath after developer also applies to kallitype printing in my experience as well.

And yes as Matt mentions, 5 min development also helps a lot.

Loris Medici · Dec 24, 2009

Please forgive if that's asking the obvious (especially for a seasoned printer - if you're one): Is your sensitizer (Ferric Oxalate) fresh?

payral · Dec 24, 2009

I use Arches Platine paper for my Pd/pt prints for more than ten years now.
Most of the time I use pot.oxalate as developer for 2 minutes and it's enough. Not less but longer will not really help.
Just two things to get it cleared after that: the first water bath MUST be on the acidic side.
To be sure of that I always put one tea spoon of citric acid in a liter of water. Two baths for one minute (1/2 liter each time).
Arches Platine must be cleared after that with a working solution of HCA from Kodak or it's equivalent Sodium Sulfite 20g/liter. 2x 5 minutes.
Wash for 15 minutes and your print will be cleared.

dpurdy · Dec 24, 2009

I guess I am old school. I use hydrochloric acid and it works fine and is cheap. I do let the print sit in the potas Oxalate for 2 minutes or more.
Dennis

donbga · Dec 24, 2009

dpurdy said:
I guess I am old school. I use hydrochloric acid and it works fine and is cheap. I do let the print sit in the potas Oxalate for 2 minutes or more.
Dennis

Dr. Mike Ware reports his microscopic examination of paper cleared with hydrochloric acid is detrimental to the fibers of the paper.

Something to keep in mind.

donbga · Dec 24, 2009

Loris Medici said:
Please forgive if that's asking the obvious (especially for a seasoned printer - if you're one): Is your sensitizer (Ferric Oxalate) fresh?

Yes.

Loris Medici · Dec 24, 2009

I'm confused now, because my question was to Luca the O.P.?

donbga said:
Yes.

Loris Medici · Dec 24, 2009

Hi Don,

My understanding was that it depends -> since he also suggest using very weak HCl (or nitric acid) - something like 1% and such - in cyanotype processing. (Or maybe it was in some other context, but I'm sure that he actually suggests that...)

Of course, for pt/pd the suggested (in the literature) strengths of mineral acid clearing baths are usually something like 5%, considerably stronger than 1%...

Since citric acid works so well for me, I never had to consider HCl as a clearing bath. But I use HCl at that strenght (5%) often for acidification of Fabriano Artistico; a heavily buffered paper - if you accept that justification...

Regards,
Loris.

donbga said:
Dr. Mike Ware reports his microscopic examination of paper cleared with hydrochloric acid is detrimental to the fibers of the paper.

Something to keep in mind.

clay · Dec 24, 2009

All of these suggestions are good. The bottom line is to avoid any contact with a solution that has a pH over 7 before the unused ferric has been cleared out. In my area, this means a water rinse after the developer is out of the question. For me, a disodium EDTA bath followed by two HCA baths will clear most papers. For some really stubborn papers, i keep a bottle of already dilute phosphoric acid (note: has some nasty fumes) that I can whip out for the last bath if necessary. One useful tip is to view the paper with a light shining through it from the back after that last bath. Examine the highlight areas closely for any hint of a yellow tone. If you see any, you haven't adequately cleared the paper, and may need a longer soak or a different bath such as the phosphoric acid I mentioned earlier. Dilute muriatic acid (HCl) will work as well, but is noxious to breath (much worse than phosphoric) and will corrode any metal in your sink area in no time. I stay away from it because it because of its nastier side effects.

Luca · Dec 26, 2009

To Loris: yes my ferric oxalate is absolutely fresh, just arrived and mixed. All my chems are fine for I have tried with some Cranes Crest paper scraps and the prints come out perfect.

I had to go away for a couple days for Christmas, now I am about to experiment with all these kind suggestions and will report back the results. Thanks!!

Luca · Jan 3, 2010

Just getting back to the thread to say that following your great advice I have managed to solve the problem at the first attempt. Which was, extended development (4 mins), no rinse after that, first bath citric acid followed by two baths of Kodak HCA. The test print actually cleared better and quickly than my usual Cranes paper with citric acid only in the past. Thank you all!

Don Dudenbostel · Jan 6, 2010

HCA no problem

I've been using Fabriano Artistaco but just gave Platine a try and really like it. When I run out of FA I will probably switch over. I use K OX developer and Kodak HCA with a 1 minute rinse in fresh water between the development and clear. I've noticed that the yellow is almost gone by the time I remove the print form the rinse and at the end of 3 HCA baths it's perfectly clear. The Fabrano paper clears fine but not as quickly using HCA. I've used HCl 5%, EDTA and citric acid but keep coming back to HCA.

biankakilen · Jul 5, 2012

Where to buy Arches Platine Paper in Europe?

Please help, I need to buy Arches Platine Paper in Europe, please let me know where is it possible?

coigach · Jul 29, 2012

biankakilen said:
Please help, I need to buy Arches Platine Paper in Europe, please let me know where is it possible?

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=44

Help with Arches Platine

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