Help with a possible unknown variant or previous owner modified Al-Vista 3B.

[Socialmocracy]

Been a long time lurker. Finally found something that I couldn’t google enough and also obtain a satisfying answer.



I’m looking for anything on this camera. I won a bid off eBay months ago and finally got around to playing with it. The winding mechanism is sticking and unreliable. It moves with some help. I noticed I can swing the lens and fire it with just the spring lens swing axle. Tested it with a shutter speed tester and got 1/98 three time in a row. I have noticed lots of things that are in different locations from the original production Al-Vistas or just plain different. I don’t see any indication of a serial number or production number. Even if that was a thing the company did. I found a “50” dug into the front cover and a “83” stamped on the inside lens cone/horn. The only other markings is a handwritten in pencil “#122film”. On the inside front cover.



I’m assuming this is a Al-Vista Camera of some unknown variety. Or previous owner modified. All Al-Vista 3b Cameras that I have found images for have some things different from this version. Let’s go over some of the differences I noticed.



Starting off 122film. I have yet to find a single other Al-Vista that was made for 122 or any literature saying as much. 122 was I believe made by Kodak for Kodak folding brownie 3A cameras. I found a ad/brochure on Pacific Rim cameras website for the 3b version. To me is the closest in size to mine. It states the film it was built for was standard 3 1/2 inch daylight loading cartridges. 122 film is 3 1/4 inch and 101 film is 3 1/2 inch. I’m guessing that the 3b was built for 101 film.



From what I found bubble levels are typically round bullseye style. This one has dual pill style. Similar to the kind you see in a woodworking level. Smaller in size although not bright green but still similar.



The rear of the camera has a window for checking the film backing paper frame number. I don’t see that on other 3b models. The window is in the wrong location for 122 film. From my understanding (I haven’t checked) 122 backing paper numbers are located on top and bottom not center. As far as I could tell there was a back plate on the camera at some point. I see holes for the nails that would have been there. I don’t see an outline for a plate just the holes.



Finally operation instructions. On the rear of the camera is a compartment. On the door of that compartment has a ruled index card with handwritten instructions. I looked on the door and don’t see any residue or indication of a different or previous sticker that might have been removed.

Here is a link to a small album of images

Does anyone have a Kodak 101 spool that is willing to post its measurements?


What is the actual width of both 122 and 101 film?


Does anyone have a Al-Vista 3b and a 122 spool that is willing to check if it would fit?


Where is a serial number normally on a 3b?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd start here for film dimensions. Spools will have the listed width inside, between flanges.

Standard Film Sizes - Antique and Vintage Cameras

www.earlyphotography.co.uk

The 3A film roll that's there seems to be a good fit -- and 3A, also known as "Postcard" as well as 122, would give the extra frame length this panoramic camera seems to need. It seems quite possible there was a proprietary format (122 size but with center numbering, perhaps with different spacing than 122) that the manufacturer sold for this camera.

I don't see any center numbering on films wider than 120.

 

[mshchem]

Standard Film Sizes - Antique and Vintage Cameras

www.earlyphotography.co.uk

 

[mshchem]

101 film has numbers in bottom location, spool looks to be similar width as 122.?

 

[Socialmocracy]

I'd start here for film dimensions. Spools will have the listed width inside, between flanges.

Standard Film Sizes - Antique and Vintage Cameras

www.earlyphotography.co.uk

The 3A film roll that's there seems to be a good fit -- and 3A, also known as "Postcard" as well as 122, would give the extra frame length this panoramic camera seems to need. It seems quite possible there was a proprietary format (122 size but with center numbering, perhaps with different spacing than 122) that the manufacturer sold for this camera.

I don't see any center numbering on films wider than 120.

Thank you for the reply. I have looked at that site. I used the numbers from that page specifically for 101 and 122.

I mostly and trying to see if I can find anything from someone’s firsthand experience. But again thank you for the response.

 

[Socialmocracy]

101 film has numbers in bottom location, spool looks to be similar width as 122.?

If that is true then the window on this camera is in the wrong place for both 101 and 122. It has me stumped for sure. Thank you for the response.

 

[Donald Qualls]

the window on this camera is in the wrong place for both 101 and 122.

That was what led me to suggest the camera maker might have offered a proprietary film -- to "lock in" camera buyers to film they continued to make a profit on. If 122 is the right width and you have a source of backing (or a way to make it) and wide enough film, you could either mark your own framing numbers on the backing, or use a dummy roll to work out how many advance turns each frame requires (it will be a little less for each successive frame as the diameter of the takeup increases with the film wound on).

 

[Socialmocracy]

That was what led me to suggest the camera maker might have offered a proprietary film -- to "lock in" camera buyers to film they continued to make a profit on. If 122 is the right width and you have a source of backing (or a way to make it) and wide enough film, you could either mark your own framing numbers on the backing, or use a dummy roll to work out how many advance turns each frame requires (it will be a little less for each successive frame as the diameter of the takeup increases with the film wound on).

I get what you are saying. It might have been a thing. The problem I have is the lack of info on a 122 variant. Mulitscope might have been trying that as a possible deal with Kodak or something similar. The folding brownie 3A was very popular among amateur photographers. That alone could have been the reason for for this camera.

So here is the question. Do you think this was a working prototype of an unreleased version of the 3b?

 

[Socialmocracy]

I found some dimensions for the spools. Both 101 and 122 films have almost identical spool sizes. Now I’m guessing this was user modified at some point. This website shows that info.

Also found out that Blue Moon Camera is going to be sell 122 iso 40 black and white soon. I don’t know if the film gate will support it but can’t wait to try.