Help. What's wrong with my negatives?

dcy · Monday at 5:48 AM

Hi everyone. Today was my first attempt at developing C-41. My negatives look fairly awful, and I don't know why. I am using the Kodak C-41 kit, and I don't know what to say except that I made an effort to follow the "Small Tank" instructions precisely.

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/product_pdf/kodak/Kodak_Color_Negative_Kit_Instructions.pdf

See the photos below:

(1) The negatives on the left, already in their sleeves, are Kodak Gold shot with a point-and-shoot Pentax IQZoom 160, and developed by a lab. This is my reference point of what a negative should look like.

(2) The two negatives on the right, clearly just developed and hanging out to dry, are Kodak Color Plus (left) and Kodak Gold (right) shot with a Pentax 17 and the same Pentax IQZoom 160 as the reference roll. These negatives were developed together, in the same tank.

The fact that two rolls with different cameras look the same, and two rolls shot with the same camera look different, shows that the issue is not with the camera / exposure, but with the development. The negatives that I developed look wimpy. My guess is that they are underdeveloped. I used a sous vide to set the temperature. I set the sous vide to a temperature of 39°C in a water tank that also had the bottles with the developer, bleach, fixer, final rinse, and the Patterson tank filled with water. I left everything in there for maybe 2 - 3 hours while I did some errands and had dinner. When I came back, I measured the temperature inside the bottle of bleach to 38.5°C. The development time was 3:15, and I think I followed the agitation protocol in the instructions precisely --- 30s initial agitation, then 2s agitation every 15s.

I dunno... I think they look underdeveloped. What do you think I did wrong?

Don_ih · Monday at 6:20 AM

Do they also perhaps look to have a bit more overall fog?

Next time, try extending your development to 3:45?

loccdor · Monday at 6:37 AM

They do look underdeveloped but I would not expect being 0.5C low on the temperature to have such a big impact. Although I would have given at least an extra 15 sec to compensate.

I was looking to see if you poured the developer into a cold tank but it seems you were heating the tank to temp. Did you measure only the bleach bottle temperature? Maybe your developer temperature was lower than your reading for the bleach. That is the most important chemical to measure here.

Another avenue is that the chemicals might be slightly more dilute than recommended. Was anything spilled in the mixing?

For next time, err slightly on the side of too hot or too long, likely that will fix things up.

dcy · Monday at 6:51 AM

loccdor said:
They do look underdeveloped but I would not expect being 0.5C low on the temperature to have such a big impact. Although I would have given at least an extra 15 sec to compensate.

The instructions give a range of 37°C - 39°C. I set the sous vide to 39°C because I expected that there would be some loss.

loccdor said:
I was looking to see if you poured the developer into a cold tank but it seems you were heating the tank to temp. Did you measure only the bleach bottle temperature? Maybe your developer temperature was lower than your reading for the bleach. That is the most important chemical to measure here.

Yeah, I only measured the bleach. That's because the bleach was the last component I prepared so I figured it'd be the last one to reach temp. But you're right. I should've checked the developer. That's the one that matters.

You said that 0.5°C is enough difference that you would've given it an extra 15s. I can think of one thing probably did wrong that could produce a ~ 1°C difference: At the beginning of the process, for the first minute or so, I didn't think to put the Patterson tank back in the hot water. So the tank might have cooled a bit.

loccdor said:
Another avenue is that the chemicals might be slightly more dilute than recommended. Was anything spilled in the mixing?

Nothing was spilled during mixing.

loccdor said:
For next time, err slightly on the side of too hot or too long, likely that will fix things up.

Thanks! Both you and @Don_ih are giving me the same advice, so that's what I'll do. Next time I will develop for 3:45 like @Don_ih said and see how it goes.

loccdor · Monday at 7:02 AM

I don't use a sous-vide, but rather a stoppered sink. One thing I do when heating the chems is aim for the sink/tub to be 1-2 degrees hotter than the desired temp of the chems. Because as they approach temp, the temp changes more slowly (mathematical asymptote sort of thing).

So you didn't spill the chemicals, good, how sure are you about the actual volume contained in your bottles? May be slightly different from manufacturer's statement or they could be expecting you to not fill it up to the cap.

I think the instructions for 37-39 should really be a hard 39 degrees based on other C-41 kits I've used. That big temperature range is going to have an impact on results if time is not adjusted.

gbroadbridge · Monday at 7:30 AM

Did you use distilled/Deionised water?

Are you certain you have not contaminated the developer?
I always mix dev first to avoid any possibility of contamination by bleach/fixer.

dcy · Monday at 7:47 AM

Replying slightly out of order...

loccdor said:
I don't use a sous-vide, but rather a stoppered sink. One thing I do when heating the chems is aim for the sink/tub to be 1-2 degrees hotter than the desired temp of the chems. Because as they approach temp, the temp changes more slowly (mathematical asymptote sort of thing).
...
I think the instructions for 37-39 should really be a hard 39 degrees based on other C-41 kits I've used. That big temperature range is going to have an impact on results if time is not adjusted.

Hmm... In that case, next time I will set the sous vide to 40 degrees.

loccdor said:
So you didn't spill the chemicals, good, how sure are you about the actual volume contained in your bottles? May be slightly different from manufacturer's statement or they could be expecting you to not fill it up to the cap.

The package doesn't come with bottles for the working solution; you have to supply those. I used breakers and graduated cylinders to measure the volumes and I made a very conscious effort to be precise with the volumes.

One thing I did that strictly did not follow the instructions is that I poured the concentrates into the beaker first, and then added water to volume. I can't imagine that that would matter, but I wanted to put that out there in case it does matter.

gbroadbridge said:
Did you use distilled/Deionised water?

Distilled water.

gbroadbridge said:
Are you certain you have not contaminated the developer?
I always mix dev first to avoid any possibility of contamination by bleach/fixer.

This is another place where it is possible I screwed up. I mindlessly mixed the fixer first. But I did realize that that was a potential problem, so I made a conscious effort to rinse the beakers and the graduated cylinders with distilled water several times in an effort to remove every trace of the fixer.

While I'm on this topic, I thought that the color of the developer was odd when I was mixing it. As I poured part C into the A+B mix, the solution quickly turned milk white. It felt like pouring milk in coffee. As I stirred, the solution became clearer, but developed some weird blotches, similar to drops of oil floating on water. I used a magnetic stirrer to do the mixing, and after a little while the entire solution turned clear, with no blotches. Just a very slight brownish tint, like very diluted tea.

No idea if anything I just said is relevant.

gbroadbridge · Monday at 8:20 AM

I'm sure @koraks will be able to nail it based on the film edge markings.
Idk whether it is underdeveloped or if there is a bleach/fix problem.

Samu · Monday at 9:02 AM

loccdor said:
They do look underdeveloped but I would not expect being 0.5C low on the temperature to have such a big impact. Although I would have given at least an extra 15 sec to compensate.

I was looking to see if you poured the developer into a cold tank but it seems you were heating the tank to temp. Did you measure only the bleach bottle temperature? Maybe your developer temperature was lower than your reading for the bleach. That is the most important chemical to measure here.

Another avenue is that the chemicals might be slightly more dilute than recommended. Was anything spilled in the mixing?

For next time, err slightly on the side of too hot or too long, likely that will fix things up.

0.5 degrees makes no practical difference. Officially, the temperature should be 37.8°C +-´0.3°, but the process will tolerate more deviation. Those negatives are seriously underdeveloped. Unfortunately the picture is not in focus, so I can´t see the edge markings.

My guess is a problem with mixing the developer. Wrong concentration, contamination, etc. The temperature would need to be totally wrong in order to produce results like you show. Something like trying to develop C-41 in 20°C. Also, chemistry must be something like 20% too weak to make a difference like that. Was the developer the color it should be ´- light yellow? If totally oxidized, the developer for C-41 will turn black.

brbo · Monday at 10:09 AM

There is no way to be so far out of the target temperature or developing time window to get such results. It also doesn't look like this is a case of insufficient bleaching and/or fixing (you could still repeat those steps just to be sure), so I think it's your developer.

I hope somebody will have an explanation what could go wrong if you first mix part A, B and C together without water. Every instruction manual for every developer that came in separate parts has always been quite clear that you start with water and then add A, B and C in this order and always after thoroughly mixing in the previous part.

Chan Tran · Monday at 10:25 AM

I hope I still have my C41 book from over 40 years ago when I used it to troubleshoot the C41 processor from Noritsu.

loccdor · Monday at 1:23 PM

Yes, it does sound reasonable that something could be wrong with the developer. With regard to rinsing the fixer out, Ilford method recommends 7 rinses. Maybe it could be that contaminating it.

mshchem · Monday at 2:07 PM

I would use a nice photo thermometer to confirm temperature of sous vide. Negatives definitely look under developed. The factory edge markings are faint (and the Pentax 17 is working fine!!!)

Klaus Mähring · Monday at 2:20 PM

dcy said:
While I'm on this topic, I thought that the color of the developer was odd when I was mixing it. As I poured part C into the A+B mix, the solution quickly turned milk white.

That does not sound good.... I've never encountered milky developer, even during mixing.

dcy said:
I poured the concentrates into the beaker first,

As long as you didn't mix the different parts before adding water, that shouldn't matter.

The negs are definately underdeveloped, you can see it looking at the small print on the side of the film. On your reference films that printings look much stronger.

dcy · Monday at 6:52 PM

Samu said:
0.5 degrees makes no practical difference. Officially, the temperature should be 37.8°C +-´0.3°, but the process will tolerate more deviation. Those negatives are seriously underdeveloped. Unfortunately the picture is not in focus, so I can´t see the edge markings.

Here are the edge markings. I'm not sure what to look for, except the fact that I see them.

Samu said:
Was the developer the color it should be ´- light yellow? If totally oxidized, the developer for C-41 will turn black.

The fresh developer from one of the unused bottles looks very light yellow. The one that I used now has a darker tint. I noticed that after the pre-soak step, when I dumped the water, it came out green. My understanding is that this is normal, but I didn't think to do more rinses, so the color of the used developer could include a little bit of whatever it is that made the pre-soak water green.

Fresh developer:

Used developer:

dcy · Monday at 7:57 PM

Klaus Mähring said:
As long as you didn't mix the different parts before adding water, that shouldn't matter.

I did mix the different parts before adding water. I took a beaker, poured part A, then B, then C, then water. Do you think that's where I went wrong? I'll be sad to hear that I ruined the entire kit, but it's better to know where I went wrong than to not know.

Don_ih · Monday at 8:00 PM

dcy said:
Do you think that's where I went wrong?

Quite possibly. A reaction may have occurred that would have been diminished if they'd been added to water.

MattKing · Monday at 8:21 PM

Can you share the mixing instructions you were working from?

dcy · Monday at 8:49 PM

MattKing said:
Can you share the mixing instructions you were working from?

Yeah.

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/product_pdf/kodak/Kodak_Color_Negative_Kit_Instructions.pdf

mshchem · Monday at 9:05 PM

Those instructions are not the same as how Kodak (Eastman) told you how to prepare. EKCo Spelled out to start with water, then add each part in order with stirring. Oh Boy.

mshchem · Monday at 9:17 PM

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis49-2004_12.pdf

MattKing · Monday at 9:36 PM

mshchem said:
Those instructions are not the same as how Kodak (Eastman) told you how to prepare. EKCo Spelled out to start with water, then add each part in order with stirring. Oh Boy.

In one part, they sort of say that - assuming you read left to right:

mshchem · Monday at 10:09 PM

MattKing said:
In one part, they sort of say that - assuming you read left to right:
View attachment 408371

Sorta.

dcy · Monday at 10:15 PM

Is there a growing consensus that mixing order is probably where I went wrong?

I think we can safely say that there was in implicit assumption that the mixing order would be:

Add "most" of the water first.
Add parts A, then B, then C.
Add water to the final target volume.

This is how we normally mix chemicals and you can see it depicted pictorially in the bottle:

I did not do it this way because I do not have a 2.5L beaker. My largest is 1L. Now, I could buy a 3L beaker and be done with it. At the time I thought I could get away with a clever use of my 1L and 500 mL beakers:

First, I mixed A+B+C and water to 1L in the 1L beaker.
Then I extracted portions to move to the 500 mL beaker to bring to full dilution and store away.

At the time I did not think that adding water last would be an issue. I could have added 500 mL of water first, then A+B+C, then water to the 1L mark.

Next time I could try that... or I could just buy a 3L beaker.

mshchem · Monday at 10:21 PM

No reason to let the marketing folks try to over simplify things. No real reason to use "Genuine" Kodak chemistry either. Not with ambiguous instructions. You need to start with 80-90% of the required water with some held back. Measure each addition carefully, rinse the graduate with a tiny bit of water, add this to the mix. Repeat for each, then dilute to the end volume, mixing along the way.

This makes a case for a quality blix kit like Adox. I have enough Flexicolor chemistry to float a boat. Still.

Frustrating.

Help. What's wrong with my negatives?

dcy

Don_ih

loccdor

dcy

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gbroadbridge

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Samu

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mshchem

Klaus Mähring

dcy

dcy

Don_ih

MattKing

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Help. What's wrong with my negatives?

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