Help! What would be a good 8x10 camera for me?

[Alan9940]

Thank you all for the quick replies and help! I have registered at the other forum aswel! I mailed a few times back and forth with Omer from catlabs. And he is giving me a price for a complete package of a Rajah (deardorff copy) with a rodenstock Sironar 360mm F6.8, in black copal #3 + 2 regular holders + 1 polaroid holder + polaroid processor and tray. I think i will be very happy with this camera and lens. The 180mm was one of my favorite lenses on 4x5. I believe this lens has good image circle coverage as well. What do you think? Sounds good for me?

Sounds like you're already on to a solid plan. Post some pictures once you get going and all the best with your new setup.

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[Alan Gales]

Haha... Kindred spirits?

Sorry, my wife's name is Anne, I did drive a Jeep many, many years ago, and I've never been to St. Louis. Only sports I've ever really been interested in are those I play myself--mostly tennis.

Best regards,
AlanH

I was never any good at tennis but I did used to play racquetball once a week. For some reason in tennis I kept running up on the ball and bending my arm at the elbow.

My neighbors across the street are named Ann and Andy. One halloween they went to a party dressed as Raggedy Ann and Andy.

 

[Alan Gales]

Thank you all for the quick replies and help! I have registered at the other forum aswel! I mailed a few times back and forth with Omer from catlabs. And he is giving me a price for a complete package of a Rajah (deardorff copy) with a rodenstock Sironar 360mm F6.8, in black copal #3 + 2 regular holders + 1 polaroid holder + polaroid processor and tray. I think i will be very happy with this camera and lens. The 180mm was one of my favorite lenses on 4x5. I believe this lens has good image circle coverage as well. What do you think? Sounds good for me?

Richard Avedon used modern 360mm Schneider or 360mm Fujinon lenses which would give the same look as your Rodenstock. Check out his In the American West

series. Dead Link Removed

Have fun!

 

[trondsi]

I'm getting a bit curious as to why 8X10 is so much more difficult than 4x5. I get that the camera is really big of course, but isn't the loading of film etc very similar?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm getting a bit curious as to why 8X10 is so much more difficult than 4x5. I get that the camera is really big of course, but isn't the loading of film etc very similar?

Just four times the cost for errors.
Just four times the cost for success.

 

[Luis-F-S]

I'm getting a bit curious as to why 8X10 is so much more difficult than 4x5. I get that the camera is really big of course, but isn't the loading of film etc very similar?

Yup, the same as loading 4x5, only everything is larger, and harder to do. L

 

[Luis-F-S]

Thank you all for the quick replies and help! I have registered at the other forum aswel! I mailed a few times back and forth with Omer from catlabs. And he is giving me a price for a complete package of a Rajah (deardorff copy) with a rodenstock Sironar 360mm F6.8, in black copal #3 + 2 regular holders + 1 polaroid holder + polaroid processor and tray. I think i will be very happy with this camera and lens. The 180mm was one of my favorite lenses on 4x5. I believe this lens has good image circle coverage as well. What do you think? Sounds good for me?

Whatever you buy, you will probably want to change at some point. Don't spend a fortune on your first camera for that reason. The 360 Sironar N is a great lens, only BIG. I have a 14" Gold Dot Dagor which is the same focal length only a lot smaller. I also have a 300 Sironar N which although the heaviest lens I own, will be small compared to the 360. If you can find a 12 Dagor in good shape in a good shutter, it may be worthwhile looking into it. L

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm getting a bit curious as to why 8X10 is so much more difficult than 4x5. I get that the camera is really big of course, but isn't the loading of film etc very similar?

The number of ways to screw up does not increase from 4"x5" to 8"x10" because one is already dealing with cameras that do not have interlocking devices and safeties.

 

[bvy]

Please do tell me about your mistakes so I can try and skip those! Aswel as your learning curve! I am both scared and excited about shooting 8x10, i think thats natural. Ofcourse I am a little afraid of messing up the first few expensive polaroids. I did not plan on practicing a year.

After all that has happend are you still satisfied with the purchase of your camera and lens? I thought that if I would invest between the 1000 and 2000 euro's on a camera and lens I would get some solid quality for it.

The polaroid processors and polaroid holders are still very expensive at least on e-bay and i am not quite sure where else to find them. I was also wondering about the polaroids processor, there a different types. Does this matter? Do they all process the current 8x10 polaroids from impossible project? Is there a significant difference between them?

And out of curiosity do you have a few examples of your 8x10 polaroids? Are you satisfied with the 8x10 polaroids? They recently released a second version have you tried those out already?

My setbacks were circumstantial. The camera was damaged in shipping, and the Polaroid processor needed a replacement part. Due diligence is in order when buying second-hand. You'll want to research the processors and holders if you're looking to buy things piecemeal. Try to find a complete system if you can. And plan on throwing away a few sheets of film just working with the holders and the processor. This frustrates a lot of people, it seems. And then a few more sheets trying to nail the exposure. The Impossible 8x10 material is contrasty and unforgiving when it comes to exposure. Add a good light meter to your shopping list. And a prayer book.

I just posted one of my Impossible 8x10 portraits to the gallery, but if you're not a subscriber here, you won't be able to view it. I added it below. The young lady here moved, so the composition and focus are a bit off. I still like it though. This is with the new v2.0 Beta film.

 

[Jvdp13]

you might keep your eye open for a szabad 18x24 which i believe will work with
8x10 holders ( i hear they are interchangable but might be wrong )
szabad made lots of these camers in the 50-60s they are built beautifully
and were sought after by every pro shooter and his/her brother/sister in scandinavia
when they were in full production. i have the 8x10 version and love it!
while alan tells it like it is, that 8x10 is harder than 4x5 ... it really isnt that much harder
DOF is tricky and it can be a heavy and slow job setting up .. but if you have done well
with 4x5 you will probably not even notice the difficulties encountered with 8x10 ..
good luck ( have fun!)
john

Ahw yes! Thank you! I have trouble finding the camera for sale and I think I am not keen on working on 18x24 with 8x10 holders to be honest. I imagined the DOF would be the hardest part, because I am expecting to see very little when looking through the camera. I will not be working in direct sunlight, matter of fact i will be working with last light of the day and i will bring a flash light to help me with focussing. Luckly I prefer a good image over "good" technique and sometimes i don't mind if the sharpness is off a little. Really excited to get started unfortunately it will take some time before I will have shot my first picture!

 

[Jvdp13]

Whatever you buy, you will probably want to change at some point. Don't spend a fortune on your first camera for that reason. The 360 Sironar N is a great lens, only BIG. I have a 14" Gold Dot Dagor which is the same focal length only a lot smaller. I also have a 300 Sironar N which although the heaviest lens I own, will be small compared to the 360. If you can find a 12 Dagor in good shape in a good shutter, it may be worthwhile looking into it. L

Yes I've read and seen that its big and heavy, but isn't that also a quick indication of quality? Sort of like the main rule in photography with camera's (maybe DSLR rule?) ? And because it is so big it also has a good image circle coverage right? Or does the gold dot dagor also have great image circle coverage? Because that is something I need aswel because I am going to tilt and shift the camera. I figured i would aim for somewhere in between cheap and expensive, to avoid buying a camera i will regret buying and because i can not afford a expensive 8x10 camera haha.

 

[Jvdp13]

My setbacks were circumstantial. The camera was damaged in shipping, and the Polaroid processor needed a replacement part. Due diligence is in order when buying second-hand. You'll want to research the processors and holders if you're looking to buy things piecemeal. Try to find a complete system if you can. And plan on throwing away a few sheets of film just working with the holders and the processor. This frustrates a lot of people, it seems. And then a few more sheets trying to nail the exposure. The Impossible 8x10 material is contrasty and unforgiving when it comes to exposure. Add a good light meter to your shopping list. And a prayer book.

I just posted one of my Impossible 8x10 portraits to the gallery, but if you're not a subscriber here, you won't be able to view it. I added it below. The young lady here moved, so the composition and focus are a bit off. I still like it though. This is with the new v2.0 Beta film.

That looks simply ...AWESOME! The new 8x10 polaroid looks solid! Yes the whole polaroid holder and processor thing is still a bit confusing to me but luckily I am currently looking at buying everything in one place, also to save on shipping costs. I already have a good light meter! But the thing that bums me out a little bit is that i can not process my polaroids on location, it must have electricity and doesn't have a manual crank. I can see right away if my exposure is right and also of course if i took a great picture or not. But after i shot the polaroid I can safely take it out and save it for a few hours and then process it at home right?

I don't expect to be wasting lots of film with the exposure but I was indeed afraid that the processing might be something new for me to learn and could be difficult to get the hang of. Then again people also said developing was difficult but imo it is also hard to mess up. I think i will try to shoot a few negatives first before i use the expensive polaroids just to make sure. Or maybe use some paper. But yes I do expect to mess up a few things and films at the start and also later on because of fatigue or excitement, it always happens, it is inevitable. But sometimes these mistakes turn out great!

 

[Alan9940]

I'm getting a bit curious as to why 8X10 is so much more difficult than 4x5. I get that the camera is really big of course, but isn't the loading of film etc very similar?

Its not that it's "difficult" rather everything about 8x10 vs 4x5 IMO is an order of magnitude greater than what you might expect. I know a few ULF photographers and they opinion the same. For example, jumping to 11x14 format is more difficult than 8x10. Sure, loading film in holders is the same, but... As you go up in format your kit weighs more, it's more difficult to trek into the field, wind is more of a problem, depth-of-field becomes more of an issue due to longer focal lengths, film handling and development is more cumbersome, etc.

Get the idea? Perhaps "more difficult" is a bad choice of words...maybe just MORE?

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[bvy]

That looks simply ...AWESOME! The new 8x10 polaroid looks solid! Yes the whole polaroid holder and processor thing is still a bit confusing to me but luckily I am currently looking at buying everything in one place, also to save on shipping costs. I already have a good light meter! But the thing that bums me out a little bit is that i can not process my polaroids on location, it must have electricity and doesn't have a manual crank. I can see right away if my exposure is right and also of course if i took a great picture or not. But after i shot the polaroid I can safely take it out and save it for a few hours and then process it at home right?

I don't expect to be wasting lots of film with the exposure but I was indeed afraid that the processing might be something new for me to learn and could be difficult to get the hang of. Then again people also said developing was difficult but imo it is also hard to mess up. I think i will try to shoot a few negatives first before i use the expensive polaroids just to make sure. Or maybe use some paper. But yes I do expect to mess up a few things and films at the start and also later on because of fatigue or excitement, it always happens, it is inevitable. But sometimes these mistakes turn out great!

Thanks for the kind words. I got lucky and maybe you will too. I never had any problem with the holder or the processing, and I'm using the 81-05 holder which is supposed to be more difficult to use than the tray/holder combination. I think a lot of it depends on the condition of the equipment. Calumets makes (made?) a manual processor which you could use on location. The irony of it is that they sell for twice what the electric processors go for -- or more.

As to your other question, you have to remove a black envelope from the negative once it's loaded in the holder. I suppose you could remove the negatives for processing later, but you'd have to do it in a changing bag or darkroom and reload them in the holder later the same way. This isn't the recommended way to process these, so you'd have to experiment. I don't know how well it would work.

 

[Alan9940]

Yes I've read and seen that its big and heavy, but isn't that also a quick indication of quality? Sort of like the main rule in photography with camera's (maybe DSLR rule?) ? And because it is so big it also has a good image circle coverage right? Or does the gold dot dagor also have great image circle coverage? Because that is something I need aswel because I am going to tilt and shift the camera. I figured i would aim for somewhere in between cheap and expensive, to avoid buying a camera i will regret buying and because i can not afford a expensive 8x10 camera haha.

No, big & heavy does not necessarily translate to quality! For example, my 360 Fujinon lens is about 1/2 the size & weight of my 360 Schneider Symmar-S (which has a front element the size of a small dinner plate!) but the Fuji lens quality is every bit as good. Likewise, larger lenses does not necessarily translate to larger image circles. Quite a few small(ish) lenses have been made with HUGE image circles. Think about the folks using 7x17, 8x20, all the way up to 20x24 they don't hang massive lenses off the front of their cameras; OK, maybe a few using old large barrel lenses and doing wet plate collodion or daguerreotypes.

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[Alan Gales]

I'm getting a bit curious as to why 8X10 is so much more difficult than 4x5. I get that the camera is really big of course, but isn't the loading of film etc very similar?

One thing that is easier with 8x10 over 4x5. With that big ground glass it is easier to see what you are doing.

I've got a bad back and I really notice the difference in bulk and weight. Everything is bigger and heavier from the camera to lenses, film holders, tripod, etc. I wheel my camera around in a wheeled tool bag and don't get too far from my vehicle. Shooting 4x5 would be easier on me but I just like the 8x10 better. What did Ansel say? Something about carrying the largest camera you can. Eventually in his old age he shot a Hasselblad out of necessity.

 

[Alan9940]

One thing that is easier with 8x10 over 4x5. With that big ground glass it is easier to see what you are doing.

I've got a bad back and I really notice the difference in bulk and weight. Everything is bigger and heavier from the camera to lenses, film holders, tripod, etc. I wheel my camera around in a wheeled tool bag and don't get too far from my vehicle. Shooting 4x5 would be easier on me but I just like the 8x10 better. What did Ansel say? Something about carrying the largest camera you can. Eventually in his old age he shot a Hasselblad out of necessity.

Totally agree! That big ground glass is like viewing a TV screen!! OK, really dating myself here...TV screens back when they were a LOT smaller than they are now.

Brett Weston used to say that anything more than 100 feet from the car was not worth shooting. Of course, I believe around the time he said that he was shooting a lot of 11x14. I still backpack my 8x10 outfit, but not nearly as far as I used to!

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[Alan Gales]

Totally agree! That big ground glass is like viewing a TV screen!! OK, really dating myself here...TV screens back when they were a LOT smaller than they are now.

Brett Weston used to say that anything more than 100 feet from the car was not worth shooting. Of course, I believe around the time he said that he was shooting a lot of 11x14. I still backpack my 8x10 outfit, but not nearly as far as I used to!

Best regards,
AlanH

Last fall the St. Louis Art Museum had a Brett Weston show. I took my wife and daughter and we all three really enjoyed it. There is nothing like viewing actual prints!

P.S. I remember watching tv on a 12" black and white set and arguing whose turn it was to get up and change the channel!

 

[vdonovan]

I think that is an excellent place to start. You'll have a lot of fun and make some good pictures with this setup. I think Catlabs is an excellent source, they give good value and they stand behind their products.

 

[Alan9940]

Last fall the St. Louis Art Museum had a Brett Weston show. I took my wife and daughter and we all three really enjoyed it. There is nothing like viewing actual prints!

P.S. I remember watching tv on a 12" black and white set and arguing whose turn it was to get up and change the channel!

I remember a business trip I took (mid-70's) to Atlanta, GA where I visited a gallery that sold Brett Weston's work. I held in my hot paws an exquisite copy of his Mendenhall Glacier image and it was, I felt, priced reasonably. Like a fool I didn't buy it! I'll spare ya the story of how I also didn't buy a 16x20 copy of Ansel's Moonrise at a ridiculously low price a few years before passing on the Weston print!

But, in later years I made up for it a bit. I have John Sexton, Alan Ross, John Wimberley, and others hanging on the walls of my home where I enjoy them daily.

P.S. Man, 12" B&W? No remote control? You must be about as old as I am!!

Best regards,
AlanH

 

[Alan Gales]

I remember a business trip I took (mid-70's) to Atlanta, GA where I visited a gallery that sold Brett Weston's work. I held in my hot paws an exquisite copy of his Mendenhall Glacier image and it was, I felt, priced reasonably. Like a fool I didn't buy it! I'll spare ya the story of how I also didn't buy a 16x20 copy of Ansel's Moonrise at a ridiculously low price a few years before passing on the Weston print!

But, in later years I made up for it a bit. I have John Sexton, Alan Ross, John Wimberley, and others hanging on the walls of my home where I enjoy them daily.

P.S. Man, 12" B&W? No remote control? You must be about as old as I am!!

Best regards,
AlanH

I'm a little younger (no business trips in the 1970's for me). I graduated high school in 1980. My dad was really cheap when it came to television sets. I remember buying a 19" RCA color tv in 79 or 80 with money I made from a part time job. My little brother and sister used to hang out in my room in the basement to watch it. Now I have a 58" Plasma with surround sound and remote. How things have changed!

Your collection of prints sound much more interesting than television though. I'm envious!

Alan

 

[Alan9940]

I'm a little younger (no business trips in the 1970's for me). I graduated high school in 1980. My dad was really cheap when it came to television sets. I remember buying a 19" RCA color tv in 79 or 80 with money I made from a part time job. My little brother and sister used to hang out in my room in the basement to watch it. Now I have a 58" Plasma with surround sound and remote. How things have changed!

Your collection of prints sound much more interesting than television though. I'm envious!

Alan

Yep, you were right several posts back...I have the same TV as you, too!!

Best regards,
AlanH