Help! What would be a good 8x10 camera for me?

Hello all,

English is not my native language so pardon me if I am unable to explain/understand certain things.

I have shot a few years on a 4x5 camera but for a new portrait series i want to shoot on 8x10 polaroids. Therefor I need a polaroid holder & processor but of course I also need a good lens and camera! I was hoping you could advice me a good camera & lens. I am mainly using it for portraits shot like this:



©Joris van der Ploeg

but I also shoot close-ups and occasionally a full body portrait. I was thinking about perhaps a 300mm F5.6? (can i do all these things with a single lens)? In general do I have to worry about not having enough bellow draw? I also like to use the tilt function, but other then that, I don't mind if it is very simplistic. I am going to shoot on location and I am young with fresh legs but would still like a camera that i could bring with me relatively easy for a 8x10 camera. Perhaps it is noteworthy that I don't mind a long shuttertime for portraits and I also like to have very little depth of field.

Also any other general tips are welcome because I am sure 8x10 is still very different than 4x5. Hope you can help me out a bit!

Sincerely,

Joris

Hello Joris,

I've shot a lot of both 4x5 and 8x10 over the past 35 - 40 years. I suppose the first thing you should probably understand about moving up to 8x10 is that, in general, it is exponentially more difficult in every way than 4x5. Not trying to scare you off...just trying to be clear that everything involved is not simply 4x5 doubled.

You don't mention if you wish to buy a new or used camera. If new, probably a Chamonix, Shen-Hao, or Canham Wood Field would be good choices. If money is no object, than maybe an Ebony? If used, your options are open to what's available and the decision might come down to how much weight you're willing to deal with; the wooden folders vary quite a bit in weight from the Dick Phillips style (very hard to find nowadays) to the Kodak D2 and other metal cameras that are all heavy!

As for lens choice, not much available new--I think Rodenstock is still making LF lenses. You will most likely have to buy a used lens and, here, your choices are pretty wide open. Your idea of a 300mm will provide you with a "normal" view on 8x10. However, for portraits in general I'd pick something longer; though you say you also want to shoot full length so, maybe, a 360mm would be your best bet? Though I do own a 300mm for my 8x10 I consider the 360mm as my "normal" lens. Any of the major players in LF lenses--Schneider, Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock--would all be a good choice; but, considering your subject matter you may want to hunt for an old 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar. IMO there is something about the way this lens draws that can't be matched by modern lenses. Maybe it's the bubbles in the glass in many of these lenses! It might work out quite nicely for portraiture, though.

Then, you have a tripod (generally big & heavy), film holders, and all the other paraphernalia that goes along with LF photography and pretty quickly it all adds up to something a bit cumbersome, if you shoot in the field. If strictly in the studio, then no issue.

Anyway, I hope something I said here helps. Good luck with your foray into 8x10!

Best regards,
AlanH

Welcome to APUG, I can't offer any specific help, but I hope you figure out what you need. Please be careful when sharing work, however, you did not credit Richard Avedon for the attached thumbnail, though I deleted the larger image, I can't seem to delete the thumbnail without deleting your whole post.

At any rate, Avedon's pictures are still protected under copyright, so at the very least, you need to credit it. Better to link to an image from his website or... share one of your own.

Thanks for your understanding.

Thank you AlanH for the quick reply! Very helpful indeed! I did forget to mention that I do not have a "lot" of money and am probably going to buy a used one and the lenses aswel. And I was also wondering what lenses fit to which camera's? If I buy a rodenstock lens will it fit both a toyo 810 and a deardorff for example? And any idea where i can get a tripod? Are the fittings of 8x10 universal for all the (8x10??) tripods like with normal DSLR camera's and tripods?

Thank you for the advice! I did not know i will do it now!

Hi Joris, welcome to Apug.

A useful resource for you would be the Large Format Photography forum.

Their main page has useful tutorial information about large format: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

They have a regular forum where you can post questions: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=4806532

Here is a very useful site about large format lenses, so you can see which ones will cover 8x10: http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/page8/lenses.html

Lastly, might I add Svedovski cameras to your list of cameras to consider. I've had one for about six months now and I really like it. Reasonably priced and well made: http://svedovsky.com/

Hello Joris,
It looks to me like that Avedon portrait was shot with a "normal" lens, i.e. 300mm or thereabouts on 8x10. For close-ups (as Alan4490 said) a long bellows draw and longer lens are desirable. Any large-format lens will fit IF it's mounted on the correct lens board for the camera. These vary a great deal. Of course the lens will need to have enough coverage. Most lenses that cover 8x10 have a small maximum aperture; f/5.6 is very fast, f/6.3, f/8 or even f/11 are more usual.
Even so the depth of field at any aperture is going to be very shallow -- think of a 300mm telephoto on 35mm!
Using Polaroid material will be expensive. I think The Impossible Project (headquarters in The Netherlands) is the only company now making instant film & paper with Polaroid specifications. They even produce 8x10 sheet film:
Dead Link Removed
From your name I'd guess you're located in Holland or Belgium. If you like, send me a personal message and I can reply with my 8x10 adventures and experiences. Mijn Nederlands is nu wat stuntelig en ouderwets maar nog steeds verstaanbaar!

Jvdp13 said:

Thank you AlanH for the quick reply! Very helpful indeed! I did forget to mention that I do not have a "lot" of money and am probably going to buy a used one and the lenses aswel. And I was also wondering what lenses fit to which camera's? If I buy a rodenstock lens will it fit both a toyo 810 and a deardorff for example? And any idea where i can get a tripod? Are the fittings of 8x10 universal for all the (8x10??) tripods like with normal DSLR camera's and tripods?

Click to expand...

Lenses will interchange among cameras. You just need the appropriate lens board for your camera drilled with the correct size hole for the lens.

You can use the same tripod that you use for your other cameras as long as it is heavy duty enough and has the proper size tripod/camera screw. Shooting 8x10 demands a strong tripod. Don't skimp on a tripod.

Welcome to the forum and 8x10!



It would really help if we knew which country you live in. For example Alan recommended a 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar lens to you. I own one myself and it's an excellent portrait lens and easy to find in the United States. It may be hard to find in other countries however.

Hello Joris,

Looks like you've got some solid information based on these posts. Vince's suggestion of the LFF forum is an excellent one! You should definitely surf on over there and get involved in that community.

What tripod can be a tough issue to crack because what you're seeking is the lightest unit that will securely hold your camera/lens combo. For me for many, many years that was the Ries A100 wooden tripod with A200 Single Tilt head (about 16 lbs worth of tripod!) However, now that I'm moving into my sunset years I just can't carry that tripod very far. Nowadays, I use a carbon fiber tripod (modeled after a surveyor's tripod) topped with a Gitzo G1570M head. The entire unit is easy to move and rock solid with my 8x10 mounted in anything condition up to moderate wind. I'm not sure I'd trust it in stronger wind conditions, though.

Good luck and I forgot to mention: Welcome to the forums!

Best regards,
AlanH

Welcome to APUG

If you want to be able to shoot 4"x5" hand held and on a tripod you may want to consider Speed Graphics, Crown Graphics or Linhofs. I use a Pacemaker Speed Graphic mainly hand held but I also use it on a tripod with limited movements.

I cannot give recommendations on 8"x10" though.

I'll chime in because you're where I was about a year ago -- looking to get into 8x10 cheaply and for the purposes of doing large format Polaroid portraits. I managed to get an 8x10 camera, shutter-mounted 300mm lens, and heavy duty tripod on eBay for $500. I spent another $500 on a Polaroid holder and processor (they're going for much less at the moment, it seems, so time is on your side there). I won't bore you with the details of everything that went wrong between now and then. Nor with the steep learning curve that I wasn't expecting. Suffice it to say that it's only been in the last few weeks that I've been able to get some consistent results with this set up.

vdonovan said:

Hi Joris, welcome to Apug.

A useful resource for you would be the Large Format Photography forum.

Their main page has useful tutorial information about large format: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

They have a regular forum where you can post questions: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=4806532

Here is a very useful site about large format lenses, so you can see which ones will cover 8x10: http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/page8/lenses.html

Lastly, might I add Svedovski cameras to your list of cameras to consider. I've had one for about six months now and I really like it. Reasonably priced and well made: http://svedovsky.com/

Click to expand...

I already read somethings on the large format website!

The svedovski camera looks really nice! It's not a bad price for a new camera if they include a lens, but that's what i was wondering about, Do you get a lens with it? And what kind of lens is it? But you can fold it, doenst way that much and you can do all sort of adjustments with it.

The website about the lenses is very useful i found another list:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html

There are 2 things that has me a little worried at the moment. One is the lens coverage, because i like to tilt the camera (not very extreme i think). I do not fully understand how to choose a lens with good lens coverage. I will shoot on 8x10 and probably looking for a 300mm or 360mm focal length . Is an image circle coverage of 300 and up good enough? Or should i be looking for a lens which has a coverage above 400? I don't want to have vignetting on my pictures.

The other is the bellow length, If i want to shoot a close up like this with a 300mm or 360mm how do I know if the bellow can stretch far enough? I do not wish to crop the images. And also for the future if i want to expand with a longer lens (450-600?). I would be best off buying a camera now that has a long bellow right?


©Joris van der Ploeg

Alan Gales said:

Lenses will interchange among cameras. You just need the appropriate lens board for your camera drilled with the correct size hole for the lens.

You can use the same tripod that you use for your other cameras as long as it is heavy duty enough and has the proper size tripod/camera screw. Shooting 8x10 demands a strong tripod. Don't skimp on a tripod.

Welcome to the forum and 8x10!



It would really help if we knew which country you live in. For example Alan recommended a 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar lens to you. I own one myself and it's an excellent portrait lens and easy to find in the United States. It may be hard to find in other countries however.

Click to expand...

I live in the Netherlands, i looked up the 14" ektar lens it looks like it is a really good lens indeed. The 14" is about a 355mm correct? I still have to look up the coverage of this lens. Are lens boards hard to find for certain camera's or can you just make them yourself out of a piece of wood? And also the hole you drill in it, where do you place it? Always exactly in the middle?

I think i have enough information about lenses when i figure out the lens coverage i need. But I am still looking for a 8x10 camera that would suite me well.

Alan9940 said:

Hello Joris,

Looks like you've got some solid information based on these posts. Vince's suggestion of the LFF forum is an excellent one! You should definitely surf on over there and get involved in that community.

What tripod can be a tough issue to crack because what you're seeking is the lightest unit that will securely hold your camera/lens combo. For me for many, many years that was the Ries A100 wooden tripod with A200 Single Tilt head (about 16 lbs worth of tripod!) However, now that I'm moving into my sunset years I just can't carry that tripod very far. Nowadays, I use a carbon fiber tripod (modeled after a surveyor's tripod) topped with a Gitzo G1570M head. The entire unit is easy to move and rock solid with my 8x10 mounted in anything condition up to moderate wind. I'm not sure I'd trust it in stronger wind conditions, though.

Good luck and I forgot to mention: Welcome to the forums!

Best regards,
AlanH

Click to expand...

Thanks! I think the tripod is something i will look for once i decided which camera and lens i want, i am pretty sure my current tripod isn't up to the task.

bvy said:

I'll chime in because you're where I was about a year ago -- looking to get into 8x10 cheaply and for the purposes of doing large format Polaroid portraits. I managed to get an 8x10 camera, shutter-mounted 300mm lens, and heavy duty tripod on eBay for $500. I spent another $500 on a Polaroid holder and processor (they're going for much less at the moment, it seems, so time is on your side there). I won't bore you with the details of everything that went wrong between now and then. Nor with the steep learning curve that I wasn't expecting. Suffice it to say that it's only been in the last few weeks that I've been able to get some consistent results with this set up.

Click to expand...

Please do tell me about your mistakes so I can try and skip those! Aswel as your learning curve! I am both scared and excited about shooting 8x10, i think thats natural. Ofcourse I am a little afraid of messing up the first few expensive polaroids. I did not plan on practicing a year.

After all that has happend are you still satisfied with the purchase of your camera and lens? I thought that if I would invest between the 1000 and 2000 euro's on a camera and lens I would get some solid quality for it.

The polaroid processors and polaroid holders are still very expensive at least on e-bay and i am not quite sure where else to find them. I was also wondering about the polaroids processor, there a different types. Does this matter? Do they all process the current 8x10 polaroids from impossible project? Is there a significant difference between them?

And out of curiosity do you have a few examples of your 8x10 polaroids? Are you satisfied with the 8x10 polaroids? They recently released a second version have you tried those out already?

Joris, there are so many mistakes you can make with Large Format, all you can do is educate yourself the best you can and then get started shooting and make your own mistakes. You can keep costs down by testing your technique using low-cost film like X-Ray film, or direct positive photo paper. That said, here is a useful list of mistakes. I've made them all myself, even after reading this list: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/mistakes.html

Note, the Svedowski camera does not come with a lens, though it does come with two (quite beautiful) lens boards. It has a VERY long base, so it can extend as long as you need. It has good movements in the front, but the back does not swing.

Most large format cameras are sold without lenses.
That said, there's a good large format vendor here that sells large format cameras complete with lenses and film holders (including Polaroid holders and processors).: http://www.catlabs.info/category/large-format-cameras

I've worked a great deal with 8x10 Polaroid and Impossible Project film. The first version of the film had its problems. I haven't used the new version yet, but I do know that their new black and white film is a lot better, so I'm looking forward to trying it. Ebay and Catlabs are about the only place you can buy the holders and processors. All of the Polaroid processors will work with the Impossible 8x10 films, but you have to make sure you have the right holder to match the processor. Do some searching and you will find plenty of discussions about which holder goes with which processor.

Jvdp13 said:

I live in the Netherlands, i looked up the 14" ektar lens it looks like it is a really good lens indeed. The 14" is about a 355mm correct? I still have to look up the coverage of this lens. Are lens boards hard to find for certain camera's or can you just make them yourself out of a piece of wood? And also the hole you drill in it, where do you place it? Always exactly in the middle?

I think i have enough information about lenses when i figure out the lens coverage i need. But I am still looking for a 8x10 camera that would suite me well.

Click to expand...

Yes, 14" is 355.6 mm. A 14", 12", 360mm or 300mm are all considered "normal" focal lengths for an 8x10.

The 14" Commercial Ektar has a large image circle of 444mm at f/22 which is generous for 8x10.

Lens boards for most cameras are easy to find. Some of the old cameras it is easy to cut your own out of wood. Some cameras take metal boards. Modern shutters fit pre-drilled lens boards. Older shutters like the Ilex #5 use flanges instead of retaining rings. You simply drill a board to fit the flange and then screw or bolt the flange to the board. If you can't do this yourself you can pay to have it done.

Normally you drill your hole in the center of a board. I know that Linhof Technika cameras use off center drilled boards.

Jvdp13 said:

Thanks! I think the tripod is something i will look for once i decided which camera and lens i want, i am pretty sure my current tripod isn't up to the task.

Click to expand...

In the Netherlands you might look for an older Gitzo aluminum tripod. I have owned a Gitzo and they are fine tripods made in France.

Personally, I use American made wooden Ries tripods. Berlebach is a German made wooden tripod. I have owned one and they are fine tripods too.

If you want a lightweight tripod for 8x10 then you have to spend quite a bit of money for Carbon Fiber.

You are right that it can be a good idea to choose your camera first and then buy a proper tripod.

As Vince wisely suggested, you might want to join the Large Format Photography Forum http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php. I'm a member and so are a lot of others here on APUG.

It's like APUG with members all over the world but specializes in large format photography. After you are a member for 30 days you can buy and sell on the forum with other members so if I were you I'd join soon to take advantage of this. The members know what they are selling so they can answer your questions unlike Ebay where many Sellers are clueless.

Joris,

Lens coverage can vary wildly based on lens design. But, to keep things simple an 8x10 neg is about 300mm on the diagonal so you need a lens with, at least, 300mm diameter circle of coverage. This size coverage, however, will not allow much movement of the front/rear standards; mild tilts/swings would be OK as long as you didn't displace the lens. Of course, working this way is not reasonable and certainly not what you want in a view camera lens. The other thing to know about the image circle is that definition is not that great at the boundaries of the circle; that is, sharpness drops off fast!

Therefore, you're looking for an image circle larger than 300mm. Per Alan Gales, the 14" Ektar would provide plenty of camera movement; one of the reasons to go with a 14" (355 - 360mm) lens vs a 12" (300mm) lens. In general, again depending on lens design, longer focal lengths cast larger image circles, while shorter focal lengths cast smaller circles. Unless we start talking ULF cameras and Dagors, but that's a whole different discussion!

Sounds like you're making some progress, though. Have fun!!

Best regards,
AlanH

Oh, one more thing...

I wanted to respond to your bellows draw concern... Basically, as I'm sure you've figured out already longer lenses require longer bellows extension. For example, my 19" Artar needs 19" of bellows draw to focus at infinity; anything closer requires more extension, of course. Also, to obtain 1:1 magnification ratio requires 2x bellows extension. For example, a 12" lens requires 24" of bellows extension to reach 1:1. This will be something you should think about if you intend to shoot close-up face only portraits. I'd have to get my camera out to try it, but a 14" (360mm) lens might need something like 18 - 20" of bellows extension to full the frame with only a face.

Best regards,
AlanH

Alan9940 said:

Best regards,
AlanH

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Let's see, Alan. We have the same first name spelled the same way. We both own 14" Commercial Ektars, 19" Artars and Ries A100 tripods.

Next you will tell me that your wife's name is Cindy, you drive a Jeep and you root for the St. Louis Cardinals!

you might keep your eye open for a szabad 18x24 which i believe will work with
8x10 holders ( i hear they are interchangable but might be wrong )
szabad made lots of these camers in the 50-60s they are built beautifully
and were sought after by every pro shooter and his/her brother/sister in scandinavia
when they were in full production. i have the 8x10 version and love it!
while alan tells it like it is, that 8x10 is harder than 4x5 ... it really isnt that much harder
DOF is tricky and it can be a heavy and slow job setting up .. but if you have done well
with 4x5 you will probably not even notice the difficulties encountered with 8x10 ..
good luck ( have fun!)
john

Thank you all for the quick replies and help! I have registered at the other forum aswel! I mailed a few times back and forth with Omer from catlabs. And he is giving me a price for a complete package of a Rajah (deardorff copy) with a rodenstock Sironar 360mm F6.8, in black copal #3 + 2 regular holders + 1 polaroid holder + polaroid processor and tray. I think i will be very happy with this camera and lens. The 180mm was one of my favorite lenses on 4x5. I believe this lens has good image circle coverage as well. What do you think? Sounds good for me?

Alan Gales said:

Let's see, Alan. We have the same first name spelled the same way. We both own 14" Commercial Ektars, 19" Artars and Ries A100 tripods.

Next you will tell me that your wife's name is Cindy, you drive a Jeep and you root for the St. Louis Cardinals!

Click to expand...

Haha... Kindred spirits?

Sorry, my wife's name is Anne, I did drive a Jeep many, many years ago, and I've never been to St. Louis. Only sports I've ever really been interested in are those I play myself--mostly tennis.

Best regards,
AlanH