Help to Identify

Ian Grant · Nov 6, 2021

I have 6 5x4 double sided plate holders but these are quite distinctly unique as the darkslide is like a roller blind made fron thins strips of wood, so intead of removal you pull from the back and it rolls over the top of the rear darkslide (and vice versa when turned around.

Could do with some help identifying the amke and what camera they fit. The edges differ one side has a central groove the complete length, but the other is different slight groove in the middle. It looks like you pulled theslides in different directions, maybe easier to say with am=normal DDS you just flip over in the vertical direction but these in the Horizontal.

I have seen one on Ebay but with no references to who or what.

Ian

Ian Grant · Nov 7, 2021

A couple more photos.

On the left is the rear showing the darkslide blind being pulled up and on the right would be uncovering the plate.

The two different sides.

Ian

nosmok · Nov 10, 2021

I think I have seen these on a couple listings from India on evilBay, but no brand info.

Ian Grant · Nov 13, 2021

I've seem them twice on eBay.co.uk, it's unlikely they were for an Indian camera as they take 5x4 plates. Indian cameras used book form plate holders.

Ian

Ron (Netherlands) · Nov 14, 2021

You see these most often in France called 'chassis plaque'.
Here's a French camera (quite nice and very different from the British style cam's) which makes use of the same kind of plateholders.
See pic nr 10:

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/32488479742...55-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050

same kind (also in pic 10 although difficult to ascertain):

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/12457316842...55-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050

and more:

https://picclick.fr/chambre-photographique-de-voyage-optique-française-APOQUARTZ-185050337037.html

https://picclick.fr/Chambre-Photographique-Hall-Paris-Avec-Sacoche-154112740778.html

So now you know Ian which camera to acquire next

Ian Grant · Nov 15, 2021

Thanks Ron, so I think I need to look at possibly a French camera being sold in the U.K. My six holders are definitely 5x4 so not a Continental European size.Also probably very much older than I'd first assumed more like 1900 than the 1930's or 40's.

Ian

Ron (Netherlands) · Nov 15, 2021

Ian Grant said:
Thanks Ron, so I think I need to look at possibly a French camera being sold in the U.K. My six holders are definitely 5x4 so not a Continental European size.Also probably very much older than I'd first assumed more like 1900 than the 1930's or 40's.

Ian

...which would fit 12x9cm plates.....the first French camera is advertised as for 12x10 cm, although that was not a regular continental format.......or was there a 12x10cm format ?

Ian Grant · Nov 16, 2021

These are definitey for 5x4 and too large for 9x12, a 5x4 film sheath is a perfect fit and the same dimensions as a 5x4 glass plate. It's quite possible there were early 10x12cm cameras for wet plate or early dry plate work before the French and Germans standardised on 9x12. 12x15,& 13x18 etc. Here in the UK you do see odd non standard formats occasionally as well.

Ian

Andy38 · Nov 27, 2021

Hello Ian,

The first who made (with patent) holders like these in France was, in the 1860s,GILLES Frères, later (~1900) named GIILES-FALLER, until the 1970s. I have a camera from 1870 (Giilles Frères) and another from 1970 (Gilles-Faller), they can use the same holder.
Here is one there, on the second pic : https://www.collection-appareils.fr...les-Faller_Chambre carrée mixte Huillard.html.
4 x 5 and 9 x 12 (cm) holders have the same external dimensions and the plate holders like yours were made until the 1950s ; earlier models are a bit different.
Later 13 x 18 cm Gilles-Faller Sheet film holders fit also 5 x 7 film without problem, I often used them like that.
After GILLES Frères, many manfacturers made copies of these holders in France ; it's not sure yours are from Gilles-Faller...

Nicholas Lindan · Nov 27, 2021

I imagine the reason for the design is that the blind retracted as the holder was inserted in the camera. Pretty neat - but required (again, in my imagination) a camera designed for these holders.

Andy38 · Nov 28, 2021

Here are 2 holders. The older is on top, the later like yours below.

The rear of a Gilles-Faller (~1950) with the ground glass on :

and with the older plate holder :

Ian Grant · Nov 29, 2021

Thanks Andy mystery solved. Now I have the make Gilles-Faller, a quick Google search shows a 5x4 model auctioned by Chiswicks in London in 2020.

Ian

Andy38 · Nov 29, 2021

It may be right for a Gilles-Faller, or not...
As I wrote above, other french makers made copies : Demaria-Lapierre, Gaumont, Lorillon and others have the same, but without the same dimensions.
If you want to find a camera for these holders, look first at a 9 x 12, it usually has the same exterior measurements ; and ask the seller for the 3 dimensions of the "door" of ground glass (don't forget thickness, to insert correctly from the side).

Ian Grant · Nov 29, 2021

Andy, I found a link to a Gilles-Faller camera earlier whichappeared to be a 9x12 and the holders were definitely narrower, that may have changed post WWII, It seems these French cameras like German Reisekameras, and British field and tailboard cameras never had any real standard in terms of plate holder fit.

I'll probably list them as they are on Ebay, there were obviously some Gilles-Faller cameras sold here in the UK.

Ian

Nicholas Lindan · Nov 29, 2021

Andy38 said:
...And with the older plate holder...

Well, that is not how I would have thought the holder would work in the camera. What is the point of the elaborate tambour darkslide?

Andy38 · Nov 29, 2021

From the 1860s until the end of business in the 1970s, Gilles and later Gilles-Faller companies kept the same standards, with some exceptions ; others companies did not.
This is one exception, a 5 x 4 G-F, different from the one you linked up above.
It has a spring-back system and so can use common holders

Ian Grant · Nov 30, 2021

I came across those Andy, They look superb cameras, I really like the baseboard system of these cameras, I do have an 18x24 Resecamera,

Ian

Andy38 · Nov 30, 2021

Nicholas Lindan said:
Well, that is not how I would have thought the holder would work in the camera. What is the point of the elaborate tambour darkslide?

The curtain (darkslide) slides around a wooden roller (tambour) that turns ; if the roller doesn't turn, the curtain moves forward with difficulty or is (often) blocked.
I don’t know what kind of wood this roller and the curtain are made of but they are very resistant for these Gilles-Faller and, in my experience, for the Lorillon holders ; they can easily last more than 100 years. This is not the case with many other manufacturers where these holders are unusable after a few years.

Ian Grant · Nov 30, 2021

Andy38 said:
The curtain (darkslide) slides around a wooden roller (tambour) that turns.
I don’t know what kind of wood this roller and the curtain are made of but they are very resistant for these Gilles-Faller and, in my experience, for the Lorillon holders ; they can easily last more than 100 years. This is not the case with many other manufacturers where these holders are unusable after a few years.

My guess is this systen does away with the need for a light seal which needs to be quite strond if the darkslide is completely removed. With British Book Form plate holders the darks slides are often hinged but they are never fully removed.

A comment about the modern style DDS film (or plate) holders, the area of the light trap end has significantly lengthend. So for example an early Premo or Century 5x4 DDS has quite a short light trap area, lthen Graflex early holders are slightly longer, and finally the last Graflex DDS film and plate holders are similar to all other modern holders. That seems to indicate there were issues with the light seals.

That may be why nearly all British amanufacurers stayed with Book Form holders until WWII, also why Germany and Europe stayed with the mostly Single sided metal plate holders - an easy velvet ribbon light seal.

Andy, find me a cheap modern 5x4 Gilles-Faller camear like the one two posts up I'll have to start searching ebay.fr it;s such a beautiful camera and would be great to use.

Ian

Andy38 · Dec 1, 2021

Ian, it's the first time I have seen the 4 x 5 camera from your link and also never seen the same camera as mine before.
13 x 18 and 18 x 24 Gilles-Faller can be found , but not easily if you want the same model.
Wooden french "chambre de voyage" 9 x 12 are much less common among all manufacturers and even less in the 4 x 5 format
I’ll let you know if I see one.

Ron (Netherlands) · Dec 5, 2021

Andy38 said:
Ian, it's the first time I have seen the 4 x 5 camera from your link and also never seen the same camera as mine before.
13 x 18 and 18 x 24 Gilles-Faller can be found , but not easily if you want the same model.
Wooden french "chambre de voyage" 9 x 12 are much less common among all manufacturers and even less in the 4 x 5 format
I’ll let you know if I see one.

Just saw a 18 x 24 Gilles-Faller for sale here in The Netherlands (Pays Bas) together with one matching plateholder

Ian Grant · Dec 5, 2021

Ron (Netherlands) said:
Just saw a 18 x 24 Gilles-Faller for sale here in The Netherlands (Pays Bas) together with one matching plateholder

It's a wonderful looking camera with excellent movements, a shame it's not an International back like Andy's 5x4 camera. I've given the links to another member here who makes his own cameras he's actually a musical instrument maker so has the ideal skills. There's something very neat with the tongue and groove base board system. I have an 18x24 Reisekamera.

Ian

Ron (Netherlands) · Dec 6, 2021

Ian Grant said:
It's a wonderful looking camera with excellent movements, a shame it's not an International back like Andy's 5x4 camera. I've given the links to another member here who makes his own cameras he's actually a musical instrument maker so has the ideal skills. There's something very neat with the tongue and groove base board system. I have an 18x24 Reisekamera.

Ian

Indeed they look very sturdy, guess they were made from oak.

(seller made me once an offer which I declined, but I get the impression they really want to sell - it's been for sale quite long)

Ron (Netherlands) · Dec 7, 2021

An older one for 13x18 plates, but not in such a good shape anymore (crack in the base), although made from very beautiful wood:

https://www.catawiki.com/nl/l/53577337-gilles-faller

This one looks even better (but seems much bigger)- seems pre WWII:

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/403329650568?hash=item5de8520f88:g:K3AAAOSw7Y9hm1YA

Andy38 · Dec 8, 2021

The identification plate is used to date the camera.

This 18 x 24 Gilles-Faller was my first large format camera.
I bought and used it in the (19)70s.
I was young and not afraid of the high weight of the device ; it didn’t last...

It was replaced by a lighter 13 x 18 G-F I used a lot.

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