Help: Prints turn brown after about a month

lhoff601 · Nov 26, 2017

Hi! I'm definitely an amateur compared to most everyone else, here. So, please forgive a newbie question. But, I have been printing on Ilford Multigrade IV, using Ilford Multigrade developer, Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer. I have been washing my prints for two minutes or longer and letting them air dry.

My problem: after about 2 months of hanging on the wall, the white areas of my prints begin to take on a brown tone. Have you ever seen this on your work? What causes it? How can I prevent it? (I've tried washing for as much as 10 minutes, and this still happens.)

Your advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Rick A · Nov 26, 2017

Fiber base or RC? How long is your fix time? FB paper needs upwards of an hour in the wash, unless using a wash aid (hypo clearing agent).

Gerald C Koch · Nov 26, 2017

From the symptom and your method the obvious cause is insufficient washing. Use the Kodak Silver Test solution ST-1 to test for insufficient fixing/washing. Using the Kodak HCA after the fixer would also help.

LarsAC · Nov 27, 2017

How do you fix (duration, dilution, ...) ? Have you tried fresh fixer? Might also be a problem of improper fixing step. For FB try two-bath fixation.

Lars

chip j · Nov 27, 2017

Fix RC for 2 min, at least, in regular fixer. Use hypo-clear.

silveror0 · Nov 27, 2017

Have you read Ilford's information sheet that was included with your paper? It tells you all you need to know to get started. If you don't have it you can download it from Ilford's website after logging in.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/

CMoore · Nov 27, 2017

lhoff601 said:
Hi! I'm definitely an amateur compared to most everyone else, here. So, please forgive a newbie question. But, I have been printing on Ilford Multigrade IV, using Ilford Multigrade developer, Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer. I have been washing my prints for two minutes or longer and letting them air dry.

My problem: after about 2 months of hanging on the wall, the white areas of my prints begin to take on a brown tone. Have you ever seen this on your work? What causes it? How can I prevent it? (I've tried washing for as much as 10 minutes, and this still happens.)

Your advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Sometimes it helps to hear from another (Me) beginner.....
1. Do you know what ratio you mix the fix at.? Do you know how often you change it, or about how many pieces of paper go through the fix before you change it.?
Are ALL of your prints doing this.?

2. As others have said, check with Ilford to see what they say about a washing procedure. I believe it is better to have wash water that is slightly "warm" (68F for example) than to have wash water that is rather cold. Some guys live in some pretty cold climates and their tap water can be rather cold. Rushing water at 50F may not work as well as slow moving water that is 68F.

3. It can be pretty important to have good processing skills with your Trays (assuming you are using trays). Lots of beginners have lousy house-keeping skills. They mix up the tongs, constantly.....but much worse, they do not let the paper drip long enough when going from one tray to the next. You would be amazed at how fast you can deplete your chemistry if you do not pause in between the baths. Especially with Developer, which always seems to take longer, i let my paper drip at an angle for a good 15 seconds before i go from Developer to Stop, and the same gain when going from Stop to Fix.
Just some things to consider.

Most of these guys know WAY more than i do, but it has been a long time since they have made these "Beginner Mistakes".
Good Luck with finding a solution (You Will)

RalphLambrecht · Nov 27, 2017

lhoff601 said:
Hi! I'm definitely an amateur compared to most everyone else, here. So, please forgive a newbie question. But, I have been printing on Ilford Multigrade IV, using Ilford Multigrade developer, Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer. I have been washing my prints for two minutes or longer and letting them air dry.

My problem: after about 2 months of hanging on the wall, the white areas of my prints begin to take on a brown tone. Have you ever seen this on your work? What causes it? How can I prevent it? (I've tried washing for as much as 10 minutes, and this still happens.)

Your advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Yes, this happened to me too. It was after repainting my walls and getting new carpet; only untoned prints were affected; all selenium or sulphide-toned prints were fine.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 27, 2017

LarsAC said:
How do you fix (duration, dilution, ...) ? Have you tried fresh fixer? Might also be a problem of improper fixing step. For FB try two-bath fixation.

Lars

and don't forget to tone valuable prints. Toning brings the real protection

M Carter · Nov 27, 2017

This has got to be insufficient fixing or washing. Both of which are vastly important, and both of which tend to be arbitrary/guessing times (particularly with fix, since it loses potency with every print and every hour open in the tray, to some degree).

So two of the most vital steps in print processing are - essentially - guesswork. Vital + guesswork doesn't add up very well, right?

You can test how your fixer is doing with your particular paper with a strip test when you get started. But it's easy to test how it's actually working on a specific print.

I keep a nail-polish bottle with straight Selenium toner in it (you can but the bottles brand new on Amazon). After fixing, I rinse the print, blot it dry, and put one tiny droplet on the margin. If it yellows - fix more. The response is instant, too. (this spot will be permanent so do it where the print will be trimmed or matted).

After rinse, HCA, and wash, I blot a print dry and put one droplet of Residual Hypo Test (from the Formulary) on the margin. Time for two minutes. Any yellowing means wash more. If you do this after 5 minutes wash, the spot will be deep brown, after 20 minutes maybe light cream - so you can gauge how well your wash is proceeding. Priceless stuff.

voceumana · Nov 27, 2017

Your fixer might have been exhausted. Fixer makes unexposed silver in the emulsion soluble, and washing then removes it. If the fixer was exhausted, then it would remain in the emulsion and darken with exposure to light.

The silver in film and paper darkens with exposure to light--it doesn't require developer, but it takes a lot longer without developer.

Insufficient wash is another possibility, as if it isn't washed enough the silver still remains to darken later.

Mainecoonmaniac · Nov 27, 2017

lhoff601 said:
Hi! I'm definitely an amateur compared to most everyone else, here. So, please forgive a newbie question. But, I have been printing on Ilford Multigrade IV, using Ilford Multigrade developer, Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer. I have been washing my prints for two minutes or longer and letting them air dry.

My problem: after about 2 months of hanging on the wall, the white areas of my prints begin to take on a brown tone. Have you ever seen this on your work? What causes it? How can I prevent it? (I've tried washing for as much as 10 minutes, and this still happens.)

Your advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

How do you wash your prints? If your prints are crowded when you wash them, they might not get a thorough wash. Most RC papers will wash thoroughly when fresh water is circulating on the print within 5 minutes without using hypo clear.

Sirius Glass · Nov 27, 2017

Insufficient washing or fixing. Or the fixer has gone bad.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 28, 2017

CMoore said:
Sometimes it helps to hear from another (Me) beginner.....
1. Do you know what ratio you mix the fix at.? Do you know how often you change it, or about how many pieces of paper go through the fix before you change it.?
Are ALL of your prints doing this.?

2. As others have said, check with Ilford to see what they say about a washing procedure. I believe it is better to have wash water that is slightly "warm" (68F for example) than to have wash water that is rather cold. Some guys live in some pretty cold climates and their tap water can be rather cold. Rushing water at 50F may not work as well as slow moving water that is 68F.

3. It can be pretty important to have good processing skills with your Trays (assuming you are using trays). Lots of beginners have lousy house-keeping skills. They mix up the tongs, constantly.....but much worse, they do not let the paper drip long enough when going from one tray to the next. You would be amazed at how fast you can deplete your chemistry if you do not pause in between the baths. Especially with Developer, which always seems to take longer, i let my paper drip at an angle for a good 15 seconds before i go from Developer to Stop, and the same gain when going from Stop to Fix.
Just some things to consider.

Most of these guys know WAY more than i do, but it has been a long time since they have made these "Beginner Mistakes".
Good Luck with finding a solution (You Will)

warmer water does indeed speed up washing up to a point.wash water above 80F may damage the emulsion but, washing cold works only slowly. Then again, I doubt washing is your problem; exhausted fix is more likely the issue in combination with fresh spit fumes.

lhoff601 · Nov 28, 2017

Wow! So many replies!

Thank you! To answer from the oldest first:
* I am using RC paper
* I am using Ilford Rapid Fixer, at 1+4 dilution
* I fix for 30 seconds. I should list all of my times:
- developer: in for 1:40, let drain for 0:15, or longer before
- stop bath: in for 0:10, let drain for 0:15, or longer before
- fixer: in for 0:30
* I mix all of my chemistry "fresh" for each darkroom session. ("Fresh" means I don't keep mixed chemistry around. It does not necessarily mean the contents of the Ilford bottles are brand new...)
* Kodak silver test solution: that's a new one on me
* Crowding the wash: that's a distinct possibility. I keep prints in the wash for no less than 5 minutes. The wash tray is a tray with an intake hose which I connect to the faucet and has perforations on the opposite side, for drainage. So, the water is continuously cycling through. But, maybe I *am* recontaminating the longer-washed print?
* M Carter: very intrigued by your process! I will have to try it.
* Toning: I have never done toning. Not sure I'm in a position to try as my darkroom is not well ventilated. But, maybe I can figure something out.
* Housekeeping: I label my tongs and my trays. So, they always come into contact with only their intended chemical. (At least, that's the plan.)

With everything that was offered in all of these replies, I have a lot to try. Thank you so much! It'll take me a while to trial and eliminate, but I'll try to report back.

CMoore · Nov 28, 2017

Again.....let some of these More Experienced guys reply, but 1:4 is usually for Film. You might be hitting the paper harder than it needs.?
Then again, maybe with RC, the extra heavy Fix simply washes away.?
You could try 1:9 and see if that helps.....good luck

Prof_Pixel · Nov 28, 2017

To see if you are fixing enough, try the following: process a print as usual (including the wash step). Reinsert the print in the developer (with the room lights on) and develop for a couple of minutes. Does the print darken? If so, you are not fixing enough.

winger · Nov 28, 2017

CMoore said:
Again.....let some of these More Experienced guys reply, but 1:4 is usually for Film. You might be hitting the paper harder than it needs.?
Then again, maybe with RC, the extra heavy Fix simply washes away.?
You could try 1:9 and see if that helps.....good luck

My Ilford Rapid Fix bottle says to make 1:4 and use 1/2 minute for RC and 60 seconds for FB. The concentrate lasts up to 2 years in an unopened bottle, less once opened - how old is yours?

FWIW, my times for RC aren't far from these. I wash for 10 minutes for RC with usually no more than 10 sheets of 8x10 in a container that holds about 2 gallons or so. I only develop for 1 minute for RC, though I doubt that's causing your problem. I mostly use RC for contact sheets and quick work prints to see how something looks bigger and to see if it's going to be a pain to do or not. My RC prints are fine - good whites, no weird tints.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 29, 2017

CMoore said:
Again.....let some of these More Experienced guys reply, but 1:4 is usually for Film. You might be hitting the paper harder than it needs.?
Then again, maybe with RC, the extra heavy Fix simply washes away.?
You could try 1:9 and see if that helps.....good luck

No, short film-strength fixing is a good idea to remove all non-image silver. Your browning comes from residual silver not overfilling but it needs to be protected through toning.
Don't worry it's easy

CMoore · Nov 29, 2017

RalphLambrecht said:
No, short film-strength fixing is a good idea to remove all non-image silver. Your browning comes from residual silver not overfilling but it needs to be protected through toning.
Don't worry it's easy

Hey Ralph -
Are you saying his problem stems from lack of toning, or that he has a washing problem but also needs to tone .....if you know what i mean.?
Thank You

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 29, 2017

lhoff601 said:
Wow! So many replies!

Thank you! To answer from the oldest first:
* I am using RC paper
* I am using Ilford Rapid Fixer, at 1+4 dilution
* I fix for 30 seconds. I should list all of my times:
- developer: in for 1:40, let drain for 0:15, or longer before
- stop bath: in for 0:10, let drain for 0:15, or longer before
- fixer: in for 0:30
* I mix all of my chemistry "fresh" for each darkroom session. ("Fresh" means I don't keep mixed chemistry around. It does not necessarily mean the contents of the Ilford bottles are brand new...)
* Kodak silver test solution: that's a new one on me
* Crowding the wash: that's a distinct possibility. I keep prints in the wash for no less than 5 minutes. The wash tray is a tray with an intake hose which I connect to the faucet and has perforations on the opposite side, for drainage. So, the water is continuously cycling through. But, maybe I *am* recontaminating the longer-washed print?
* M Carter: very intrigued by your process! I will have to try it.
* Toning: I have never done toning. Not sure I'm in a position to try as my darkroom is not well ventilated. But, maybe I can figure something out.
* Housekeeping: I label my tongs and my trays. So, they always come into contact with only their intended chemical. (At least, that's the plan.)

With everything that was offered in all of these replies, I have a lot to try. Thank you so much! It'll take me a while to trial and eliminate, but I'll try to report back.

Insufficient fixing/washing. At least two minutes in the fixer is what you should be using. Wash for 20 minutes.

Anon Ymous · Nov 29, 2017

TheFlyingCamera said:
Insufficient fixing/washing. At least two minutes in the fixer is what you should be using. Wash for 20 minutes.

He is using RC paper. 20' is unreasonably long washing time. 2' is all that is needed, but perhaps not in a tray full of prints and low flow rate. And yes, I've done the HT2 test, which supports that.

Doremus Scudder · Nov 29, 2017

I agree, fixing/washing problem. Toning is good, but it is no substitute for adequate fixing and washing and it certainly will not "protect" a poorly-processed print. A well-processed print should last for centuries without toning, however!

Some things to consider. Fixer has a capacity, which is about 80 sheets of 8x10 per liter in the OP's case (Ilford Rapid Fixer and RC paper). If you exceed this capacity, you risk underfixing your prints and having them yellow. Fixer can go bad sitting on the shelf. If it smells strongly of sulfur and/or has flakes floating around in it or a precipitate, it is likely bad or on the way out. Using such fixer can also result in underfixing prints and yellowing. Washing needs to be done with the print surface in contact with the water all the time. Stacking prints on top of each other in the wash simply assures that the ones covered up don't get washed.

Do follow the directions: http://www.fotofachversand.at/pdf/datenblatt-fact-sheet-Ilford-Rapid-Fixer-english.pdf

Best,

Doremus

Harman Tech Service · Nov 29, 2017

I second most of what has been stated above. Your times seem fine. Don't forget "gentle agitation".
Or, as I know it, "move it around a bit".
See:
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file_id/2012/product_id/711/
(Rapid Fix)
and
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file_id/1957/product_id/743/
(MGIV RC)
-Doremus, the cached sheet you refer to is an earlier version but mostly small changes.

Reading what you have said about washing I suspect that the fixer is the most likely culprit. If you send me the batch number then I'll tell you how old it is (eg.41B020).
STORAGE: Full, unopened bottles of ILFORD RAPID FIXER concentrate stored in cool conditions, 5–20ºC (41–68ºF), will keep for two years.
Once opened use completely within six months and keep all bottles tightly sealed until used.
(Some people can store for longer and find all is OK but we have to be conservative, lower temperatures -never freezing- are better.)
Regards,
David
(technical@harmantechnology.com)

LarsAC · Nov 29, 2017

Great service, David@Harman/Ilford.

@OP: fixer diluted 1+4 is ideal, also for paper. Ilford even recommends it for FB to shorten wash times. I use 1+4 all the time, also for RC without problems.

30secs fixing time might be somewhat optimistic. I would give it another try with at least 60secs, maybe 90secs.

I had issues of prints turn brown after few onths and suspect the cheap wooden back if the frame to be the cause, as it never happened to those prints which were properly mounted on archival board and then framed. Probably goes into the same direction Ralph pointed towards.

Lars

Help: Prints turn brown after about a month

lhoff601

Rick A

Gerald C Koch

LarsAC

chip j

silveror0

CMoore

RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

M Carter

voceumana

Mainecoonmaniac

Sirius Glass

RalphLambrecht

lhoff601

CMoore

Prof_Pixel

winger

RalphLambrecht

CMoore

TheFlyingCamera

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Doremus Scudder

Harman Tech Service

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Help: Prints turn brown after about a month

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