Help please: how do I remove the film from AP film tank spiral?

Steve@f8 · Jul 31, 2021

New to development and already having problems.
I have a compact AP development tank (2 reels).
Easy to get the film on the spiral, but how do I get the film off?
Without trying to break the spiral I cannot get the two halves of the spiral to separate, or am I off track here and there’s no need to do that, I’m just doing it incorrectly?
(The instruction booklet doesn’t describe the process.)

tokam · Jul 31, 2021

It'll be the same procedure as for the Paterson reels. Grasp the film from the outside of the reel at the point where it has been loaded into the spiral and squeeze the outer edges producing a bow across the film. At this point you can gently unwind the film from the reel whilst maintaining the bow. No need to attempt to separate the two halves of the reel as there is a good chance of introducing kinks in the film. Don't attempt to pull the film out of the spirals through the loading gap. Just pull the film off of the reel whilst rotating the reel.

Ian C · Jul 31, 2021

The AP reels are designed so that you have to pull the reel apart along its central axis. It unsnaps easily with only moderate force. You have to line the two halves to a particular position. Here’s a video that shows it being done.

Steve@f8 · Jul 31, 2021

Thank you tokam,
That works but the instructions ‘say’ “the spirals may be adjusted to the following film formats: 135, 126, 127 and 120”. But I can not get the two halves of the spirals to budge.

Ian C · Jul 31, 2021

You have to rotate the two halves relative to each other to a particular position. Then you can adjust the spacing to one of the fixed widths for the film in use. You should feel a slight “snap” as the pilot of one half engages the groove of the other as you rotate past the entry point. Then you rotate back to the normal ratcheting position for use.

Steve@f8 · Jul 31, 2021

Ian C said:
The AP reels are designed so that you have to pull the reel apart along its central axis. It unsnaps easily with only moderate force. You might have to line the two halves to a particular position. Here’s a video that shows it being done.

Thanks Ian C that works a treat!
How easy and helpful if the instruction manual actually made this clear.!

tokam · Jul 31, 2021

And that video explains why whenever you buy a second hand System 4 tank, (and probably AP tank as well), that the locking collar is missing because he doesn't know what its functions is.
When you load a tank with only 1 reel, place the locking collar onto the column after you have placed the reel onto the column. Then during inversion agitation you eliminate the risk of the tank sliding along the column and getting stuck up out of the solution when the tank is returned to the upright position between agitation cycles. You should get into the practise of fitting the locking collar all the time; else you will put it away somewhere safe and probably lose it. (Yes I know that using empty reels is another way to ensure that the loaded reel will stay under the solutions at all times. I have also been known to wind a thick rubber band onto the shaft in lieu of the locking collar if I don't have one. I've been using these tanks, without mishap, for nearly 50 years.

He makes it look easy to remove dried negatives from the reel by splitting the reel. In this condition the dried negatives will not stick to the reel. Easy peasy!!

When you have finished washing your film on the reel it will tend to bind to the reel and will not slide easily with the end result frequently being crescent shaped kinks on the film if you try to unlock and split the reels with a wet film inside.

Steve@f8 · Jul 31, 2021

tokam said:
And that video explains why whenever you buy a second hand System 4 tank, (and probably AP tank as well), that the locking collar is missing because he doesn't know what its functions is.
When you load a tank with only 1 reel, place the locking collar onto the column after you have placed the reel onto the column. Then during inversion agitation you eliminate the risk of the tank sliding along the column and getting stuck up out of the solution when the tank is returned to the upright position between agitation cycles. You should get into the practise of fitting the locking collar all the time; else you will put it away somewhere safe and probably lose it. (Yes I know that using empty reels is another way to ensure that the loaded reel will stay under the solutions at all times. I have also been known to wind a thick rubber band onto the shaft in lieu of the locking collar if I don't have one. I've been using these tanks, without mishap, for nearly 50 years.

He makes it look easy to remove dried negatives from the reel by splitting the reel. In this condition the dried negatives will not stick to the reel. Easy peasy!!

When you have finished washing your film on the reel it will tend to bind to the reel and will not slide easily with the end result frequently being crescent shaped kinks on the film if you try to unlock and split the reels with a wet film inside.

Good advice, thanks tokam.

AgX · Jul 31, 2021

Ian C said:
You have to rotate the two halves relative to each other to a particular position. Then you can adjust the spacing to one of the fixed widths for the film in use. You should feel a slight “snap” as the pilot of one half engages the groove of the other as you rotate past the entry point. Then you rotate back to the normal ratcheting position for use.

Or with other words:
The two spirals can be twisted against each other, necessary for that virtual "ratchet" transport of the film. At the end of the movement in one direction is a stop that by little force can be overcome. By this this one of the spirals is in a position that it can be both, slided up or down the stem to adjust for the film width or taken off.

Once one spiral taken off, the film can easily pulled off the the resting spiral, or by turning over this spiral let fallen into a basin of final bath.

bunktheory65 · Jul 31, 2021

the first few times it is a pain as the spirals need to break in. However the real issue is making sure to get the film to advance properly.

Has anyone figured out if the AP compact is made by freestyle?

AgX · Jul 31, 2021

AP is the name of the spanish manufacturer.

Randy Stewart · Aug 2, 2021

bunktheory65 said:
Has anyone figured out if the AP compact is made by freestyle?

The AP tanks are sold by both B&H and Freestyle, rebranded under their house brand names. IMO they are better quality and design than the Patterson tanks, particularly the reels.

bunktheory65 · Aug 2, 2021

Randy Stewart said:
The AP tanks are sold by both B&H and Freestyle, rebranded under their house brand names. IMO they are better quality and design than the Patterson tanks, particularly the reels.

It doesnt feel that way. The design doesnt pour out well. and the mystery leak is a pain in the rear.

jay moussy · Aug 2, 2021

Collar?
I did not get one when buying my new System 4, two years ago. Single pool 135 or 120 seems(?) to stay put on central post by friction alone, with no adverse effect. Elastic band for peace of mind?

MattKing · Aug 2, 2021

There are two types of AP tanks. I have a couple of the ones with a red cap (that came with the wide flange reels) and they are excellent - no leaks. They also have parallel sides, which makes them good for rotary agitation.
The other type is less expensive and comes with the cheaper reels.

pentaxuser · Aug 2, 2021

I have Jobo reels which are also in two halves and can be parted and adjusted for 120 film BUT the film can be easily removed or so I have found, without parting the two halves. I have never in fact parted the two halves when taking the film out so just out of curiosity what is it about AP reels that prevents the film being taken out without taking the two halves apart?

Thanks

pentaxuser

MattKing · Aug 2, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I have never in fact parted the two halves when taking the film out so just out of curiosity what is it about AP reels that prevents the film being taken out without taking the two halves apart?

With the "premium" reels set to 35mm, the wider "loading ramp" flanges make it less easy.

pentaxuser · Aug 2, 2021

Thanks Matt From your pic however I am none the wiser, never having seen an AP reel. Which bits are the loading ramps? Are they the white bits that span the two coils that look like 4 square teeth where the right set of two square teeth appear to overlap slightly the two left ones

What makes it harder to unreel? I'd have thought that the film would just slide over them as it is wet on removal from the immersion in the wetting agent or are we talking about leaving the film on the reel until it is dry?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Aug 2, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Are they the white bits that span the two coils that look like 4 square teeth where the right set of two square teeth appear to overlap slightly the two left ones

They are the lower two film guides. When loading, the film starts over top of them and goes into the space between them and the shorter guides above them, and from there past the ball bearings and into the outside spiral. Those "loading ramp" guides are invaluable when you load 120 film.
When you go to remove the film it doesn't slide easily out of plastic reels in the direction parallel to the spiral. Those guides block you from cupping the 35mm film and pulling it up and out in a direction perpendicular to the spiral. Which means that with 35mm film you need to pop apart the reel halves to remove it.
With 120 film, the "loading ramp" guides have about a 3 cm gap between them which means it is optional whether you pop the reels apart to unload.

AgX · Aug 2, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I have Jobo reels which are also in two halves and can be parted and adjusted for 120 film BUT the film can be easily removed or so I have found, without parting the two halves. What is it about AP reels that prevents the film being taken out without taking the two halves apart?

There are different designs of Jobo reels. One design even got kind of barbs.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 2, 2021

The film should just slide off. The most satisfying part of film development!

tokam · Aug 3, 2021

jay moussy said:
Collar?
I did not get one when buying my new System 4, two years ago. Single pool 135 or 120 seems(?) to stay put on central post by friction alone, with no adverse effect. Elastic band for peace of mind?

Hi Jay, according to Paterson instructions you do not need the collar if you are using the latest Super System 4 tanks and reels. They do recommend the use of the collar when using older System 4 reels in the latest Super System 4 tank. The collar should be used in the older System 4 tanks.

The collar should be snugged down against the reel if you are not using the full complement of reels on the column to prevent the reel from sliding up the column during inversion agitation and ending up out of the solutions when the tank is returned to the upright position.

(Out of 6 Paterson / AP tanks I have, I only have one spring collar which came with the original tank which I bought new. The other tanks were bought second hand or were freebies from friends).

PS. None of my reels have the wide loading ramps like the newer AP reels. Thus at the end of washing it is easy to pick the film from the reel and pull it straight from the reel with a slight bow without needing to split the reel into two parts.

pentaxuser · Aug 3, 2021

Thanks Matt. I think it is one of these things where there is no substitute to actually having one in your hand to experience the difficulties. I can understand the difficulties if the end of the film finishes under what sounds like a very narrow space and has to be re-fed backwards until it re-emerges and can then be pulled between finger and thumb.

However once it re-emerges then presumably pulling it and correcting the angle of the reel as you pull allows free passage for the film

If this is correct then in theory might it not be possible during the "wind-in" to leave a little of the film out so your finger and thumb can then pull it back out after processing?

It just strikes me that unless the reel is particularly robust, then breaking it apart after each film makes for greater wear and tear in the mechanism holding the reel together

pentaxuser

AgX · Aug 3, 2021

pentaxuser said:
It just strikes me that unless the reel is particularly robust, then breaking it apart after each film makes for greater wear and tear in the mechanism holding the reel together

It depends on design of the reel, and of the used materials. Jobo for instance changed over the decades designs and materials. They used for instance a lever with a stud on the end gliding over a ridge at the opposing part.

MattKing · Aug 3, 2021

pentaxuser said:
It just strikes me that unless the reel is particularly robust, then breaking it apart after each film makes for greater wear and tear in the mechanism holding the reel together

I've been opening reels of this sort for years, and have never noticed any signs of wear. I always open and separate the reel halves before I clean and dry them after each session.
For the Paterson reels, the instructions say this:
REMOVING THE FILM FROM THE REEL To remove the film from the reel, arch the free end by bending the two edges together slightly. Pull gently on the free end, allowing the reel to rotate on the other hand, and the whole length of film will run easily out of the reel as it rotates. The film should then be clipped or pinned up to dry.
Note that one does not pull the film through the opening for the film, and past the ball bearings.
With the AP reels, set to 35mm width, the "loading ramp" guides get in the way of doing this, so you need to separate the halves.

Help please: how do I remove the film from AP film tank spiral?

Steve@f8

tokam

Ian C

Steve@f8

Ian C

Steve@f8

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Steve@f8

AgX

bunktheory65

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Randy Stewart

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jay moussy

MattKing

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AgX

Andrew O'Neill

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Help please: how do I remove the film from AP film tank spiral?

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