Help on "Expose for shadows develop for hightlights"

[Saganich]

Landscapes are rough in 35mm. Contact the lab and ask how they would process the film, (what developer, continuous agitation) and ask for film recommendation, preferably asa100 or less, that they have the most experience and confidence with. Make some shots using the camera meter and bracket both directions 3 or 4 stops and drop it off. Make notes about the exposures and light conditions. Note where the blacks should be black and where shadows should want a bit of detail. Note where the whites should be white, etc. The results and feedback will help for the next roll.

 

[Sirius Glass]

That should keep you occupied for about a year, during which time you won't be taking photos. A joke (at least I hope).

Simple advice.
- don't let your meter be fooled by vast expanses of luminous sky: while metering exclude sky, then frame as you like.
- sunny 16 (google if you don't know) should be, for landscape, sunny 11, because greenery is darker than the standard "average subject"

Welcome to APUG

If you keep the sky out of the light meter reading or mostly out of the light meter reading, you will immediately have virtually every exposure correct. The rest of Bernard's advice is very good.

Enjoy yourself, it is meant to be fun.

 

[Sirius Glass]

For what they are worth, here some of my thoughts.

1. The Zone System was envisioned for single sheet, large format film exposure. You can use it with roll films but you will not get the full benefit.
2. Buy an inexpensive 4x5 large format camera to learn with if you are serious about the zone system.
3. Use one camera, one lens, one film and one handheld meter (spotmeter preferrably) to work with for awhile.
4. Make sure your camera works right. I wasted considerable time at first because my shutter was inconsistent.
5. Learn to develop your own film as soon as possible. It is not that hard.
6. In the meantime call your lab and explain to the manager what you are trying to do. They can make or break your experiments.
7. Take the steps needed to learn the correct exposure index for your film, camera and lens combo.
8. Forget fine art for now. Start learning how to visualize and use your camera to get what you see in your imagination.
9. Buy or make a fake flower arrangement with various color flowers. Your wife can help. It may be the last time you talk for awhile.
10. Using the flower arrangement, try making various types of photos by varying your exposure techniques and your developing methods.
11. Once you can visualize and capture a photograph that is full contrast, low contrast, high key, low key, etc., move to trying various filters, lights, etc. You can even take your flowers outside. (Wear sunscreen though.)
12. When you can visualize a photo or an effect and capture it on film technically then you can move on to printing.

May the Good Lord have mercy on you and your family.

Of course there is still time to drop this entire silly idea and just go out and make snapshots.

EDIT - BTW this is not exactly how I started but I really didn't learn anything useful until I did. I guess I am just a bit denser than the normal photographer.

He is right, the Zone System was designed for large format. There are useful things that can be learned from the Zone System without the pushing or pulling development and without the endless useless, expensive and boring testing, testing testing.

 

[photoloveart]

Welcome to APUG

If you keep the sky out of the light meter reading or mostly out of the light meter reading, you will immediately have virtually every exposure correct. The rest of Bernard's advice is very good.

Enjoy yourself, it is meant to be fun.

Now my (Mamiya 645 super) camera has average (AV), average+spot (AV/S) and spot. So use the AV metering ?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Welcome to APUG

If you keep the sky out of the light meter reading or mostly out of the light meter reading, you will immediately have virtually every exposure correct. The rest of Bernard's advice is very good.

Enjoy yourself, it is meant to be fun.

Now my (Mamiya 645 super) camera has average (AV), average+spot (AV/S) and spot. So use the AV metering ?

I mean keep the sky, for the most part, out of the light sensor viewing area. The sky causes the exposure reading to shorting the exposure time, which some compensate by reducing the film speed. Do not reduce the film speed, rather learn how to use a light meter correctly.

 

[MattKing]

Now my (Mamiya 645 super) camera has average (AV), average+spot (AV/S) and spot. So use the AV metering ?

The AV/S setting on the meter is an early, rudimentary version of more modern matrix metering.

It uses a very simplistic type of logic to choose between a spot reading and an averaging reading. That logic turns on how wide the subject luminance range is.

It isn't bad to rely on it in fast changing situations, but it is no substitute for knowing how the two different modes (spot or average) actually work, and then applying that knowledge to the results.

If you are not experienced with using a meter, the averaging mode is probably more forgiving. Not surprisingly, it averages out the scene, and suggests a setting based on that average. It will be fooled by predominantly bright or predominantly dark scenes, if you don't want those predominantly bright or dark parts to render as average. Sirius' example of a bright sky is a good example of a predominantly bright scene.

If you have the opportunity to use a spot meter, you can take readings from particular parts of the scene and then exercise judgment about how you wish those parts to be rendered in the print you intend to make. This process yields the best results, when the that exercised judgment is experienced judgment.

My advice would be to practice. Try using the meter on all three settings, in a variety of circumstances. Take notes, recording in particular what you took your readings of, and then review the resulting negatives. You should soon start to see a correlation between your results, the metering choices you made, and the different types of circumstances.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I use my variation of the classic Zone System for sheet film, but when shooting roll film (only rarely now...), I use a much different approach. It is just too slow and cumbersome to carry around extra backs/bodies for different developing schemes (might as well use the big camera...). That means I usually end up with scenes with different Subject Brightness Ranges (SBR) on the same roll.

My metering techniques for roll film.

Exactly what you do depends on the meter you have, but the idea is the same: get all the information recorded on the negative and deal with the different contrasts when printing.

1. Spot meter: Meter for the important shadow and place it on Zone III (or wherever you visualize it). This works for all SBRs. It is the simplest method except for the fact that you need a camera with a spot meter function or a separate spot meter, which seems redundant when there's a perfectly good built-in meter in the camera.

2. Built-in Averaging or Center-weighted Camera Meter: Using this type of metering requires you to be aware of the SBR of the scene you are photographing and compensate exposure for higher-contrast scenes. For low-contrast and normal-contrast scenes (which you need to be able to recognize), simply use the meter reading or one of the auto-exposure functions of the camera (e.g., shutter-speed priority for action shots or aperture priority for controlling DoF) and shoot away.

However, for high-contrast scenes, you need to overexpose from the meter reading. This seems counter-intuitive at first but remember, an average meter reading in a high-contrast (or high-key) scene will underexpose the shadows. Using exposure compensation is necessary in this case to keep the shadow detail on the film. If you're good enough to recognize the scenes that need one stop and two stops overexposure, then set your exposure compensation accordingly. If in doubt, overexpose two stops. With automatic cameras, there is usually an exposure compensation feature that allows one to do this quickly - just remember to return the compensation to zero for lower-contrast scenes.

With this system, you simply develop all negatives "normally" and then deal with the different contrast when printing. It helps to tailor your "Normal" development scheme so that a negative of a scene with a normal SBR prints well on grade 2.5 or 3 paper. This gives you enough latitude on the lower-contrast side for negatives of extreme contrast.

What makes the overexposure for high-contrast scenes possible is the fact that modern films have a straight-line section that usually goes way up into Zone XI or XII. The exception to this might be "retro" films like Foma that exhibit shouldering sooner. With such films, you may have to compromise on exposure, losing some of the shadow detail in very contrasty situations (or, alternatively, adjust development a bit for rolls with high-contrast scenes on them).

This is a very workable system and retains the speed and flexibility that are the main advantages of smaller (esp. 35mm) cameras.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Doremus Scudder]

where's my post???

 

[RobC]

where's my post???

right above the one you just posted.

I notice there's some funny stuff happening on the forum in last 2 or 3 days. The following topic says Pentaxuser is the last poster but when I go into it shows a link to page 2 ( I have my settings to show 40 per page) but link to page 2 doesn't work. It always shows page 1 and if I click the link to goto to last post in topic it takes me to page 1. I can't see pentaxuser as last poster.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

p.s. just set to show 30 posts per page and it works OK. There are 41 posts in topic and I can see pentaxuser as last post on page 2.
Then set back to 40 posts per page and I can't see last post again. Weird but I'm not going to worry about it with the new forum software coming soon(ish) we hope.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello, I just started using film. I want to take B&W landscape photos. For now, I will not be developing my own film. It will be sent to a lab. Can I still use the "Expose for shadows and develop for highlights" technique. Can I still use the "Zone System" ? What I was planning on doing is get exposure readings for correct zones of shadows and highlights then just use an exposure value in between. Will that work ?

probably;it's similar to taking an incident meter reading but has little to do with applying the Zone System. In the Zone System you place the shadows and develop for the highlights.Whayt you are proposing is closer to averaging the exposure.The Zone System does not do that. It is a more targeted approach.Read the books and tryit.It works well.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

It would likely work, but it will really just be confusing.
Using the zone system fully requires that you have a lot of control over the processing, which you will not, until you're doing your own.
Also, it's difficult, but not impossible, to apply with roll film.

I would recommend a slightly different approach;
Be aware that your meter is more or less calibrated to render what it looks at as middle grey (18% grey).
Look at the scene you want to photograph, determine what you want to record as 18% grey and meter that.
In zone terms you are placing that portion of the picture on middle grey, or zone V.
As you get more experienced in metering specific areas to get the result you want, you'll understand what scenes may need compensation to get better shadows or highlights.

For reading material, find a copy of Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop. For a beginner it is a much clearer introduction to the Zone System than books like Adam's The Negative.

I find the term '28% gray to be confusing. It is really a middle gray that reflects 18% of the light. In PS terms, that's more like a 56% gray.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

For someone new to this, using lab development, it will be more useful to express it as "expose to protect the shadows, and let the development determine the highlights".

And be careful with advice that indicates you should meter for the highlights. That is much, much more appropriate for transparency film, or digital.

It was also advocated by William Mortensen,who used it with great success. It doesn't matter where you start;You can only control two pints of the curve.The rest falls where the technique and process allows it to fall.

 

[RobC]

I find the term '28% gray to be confusing. It is really a middle gray that reflects 18% of the light. In PS terms, that's more like a 56% gray.

That'll be even more confusing then

 

[RalphLambrecht]

The AV/S setting on the meter is an early, rudimentary version of more modern matrix metering.

It uses a very simplistic type of logic to choose between a spot reading and an averaging reading. That logic turns on how wide the subject luminance range is.

It isn't bad to rely on it in fast changing situations, but it is no substitute for knowing how the two different modes (spot or average) actually work, and then applying that knowledge to the results.

If you are not experienced with using a meter, the averaging mode is probably more forgiving. Not surprisingly, it averages out the scene, and suggests a setting based on that average. It will be fooled by predominantly bright or predominantly dark scenes, if you don't want those predominantly bright or dark parts to render as average. Sirius' example of a bright sky is a good example of a predominantly bright scene.

If you have the opportunity to use a spot meter, you can take readings from particular parts of the scene and then exercise judgment about how you wish those parts to be rendered in the print you intend to make. This process yields the best results, when the that exercised judgment is experienced judgment.

My advice would be to practice. Try using the meter on all three settings, in a variety of circumstances. Take notes, recording in particular what you took your readings of, and then review the resulting negatives. You should soon start to see a correlation between your results, the metering choices you made, and the different types of circumstances.

+1

 

[RalphLambrecht]

That'll be even more confusing then

Why do it easy if there is a more difficult way?

 

[tih]

What I was planning on doing is get exposure readings for correct zones of shadows and highlights then just use an exposure value in between. Will that work ?

probably;it's similar to taking an incident meter reading but has little to do with applying the Zone System. In the Zone System you place the shadows and develop for the highlights.Whayt you are proposing is closer to averaging the exposure.The Zone System does not do that. It is a more targeted approach.Read the books and tryit.It works well.

Actually, his averaging idea reminded me of the "Sensitometry Primer" article series by Phil Davis. Specifically, the last article; "The Incident System". They're on btzs.org: http://btzs.org/Articles.htm

 

[photoloveart]

got film results from lab. no b/w still waiting for those. on this one I used spot meter on camera and exposed for shadows. Kodak portra 400 rated @ 200.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/artman51164/20833383284/in/dateposted-public/

 

[photoloveart]

I use my variation of the classic Zone System for sheet film, but when shooting roll film (only rarely now...), I use a much different approach. It is just too slow and cumbersome to carry around extra backs/bodies for different developing schemes (might as well use the big camera...). That means I usually end up with scenes with different Subject Brightness Ranges (SBR) on the same roll.

My metering techniques for roll film.

Exactly what you do depends on the meter you have, but the idea is the same: get all the information recorded on the negative and deal with the different contrasts when printing.

1. Spot meter: Meter for the important shadow and place it on Zone III (or wherever you visualize it). This works for all SBRs. It is the simplest method except for the fact that you need a camera with a spot meter function or a separate spot meter, which seems redundant when there's a perfectly good built-in meter in the camera.

2. Built-in Averaging or Center-weighted Camera Meter: Using this type of metering requires you to be aware of the SBR of the scene you are photographing and compensate exposure for higher-contrast scenes. For low-contrast and normal-contrast scenes (which you need to be able to recognize), simply use the meter reading or one of the auto-exposure functions of the camera (e.g., shutter-speed priority for action shots or aperture priority for controlling DoF) and shoot away.

However, for high-contrast scenes, you need to overexpose from the meter reading. This seems counter-intuitive at first but remember, an average meter reading in a high-contrast (or high-key) scene will underexpose the shadows. Using exposure compensation is necessary in this case to keep the shadow detail on the film. If you're good enough to recognize the scenes that need one stop and two stops overexposure, then set your exposure compensation accordingly. If in doubt, overexpose two stops. With automatic cameras, there is usually an exposure compensation feature that allows one to do this quickly - just remember to return the compensation to zero for lower-contrast scenes.

With this system, you simply develop all negatives "normally" and then deal with the different contrast when printing. It helps to tailor your "Normal" development scheme so that a negative of a scene with a normal SBR prints well on grade 2.5 or 3 paper. This gives you enough latitude on the lower-contrast side for negatives of extreme contrast.

What makes the overexposure for high-contrast scenes possible is the fact that modern films have a straight-line section that usually goes way up into Zone XI or XII. The exception to this might be "retro" films like Foma that exhibit shouldering sooner. With such films, you may have to compromise on exposure, losing some of the shadow detail in very contrasty situations (or, alternatively, adjust development a bit for rolls with high-contrast scenes on them).

This is a very workable system and retains the speed and flexibility that are the main advantages of smaller (esp. 35mm) cameras.

Best,

Doremus

since I'm not developing my own film and letting lab do it will your technique still work ?

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Yes it will. What your lab is doing is developing your film to a "normal" standard. You'll have little control over this, but most pro labs do a fairly good job of developing so that normal-contrast scenes print well. Your job will be to make the correct exposure compensation for contrasty scenes and deal with the lower paper grade needed when printing.

An aside to the mods if they read this: For some strange reason I cannot access page 4 (for me) of this thread and can neither see my post nor any of the others on that particular page. I can, however, see page 5. I've even tried changing the page number to "4" in the address field; no luck. Is there a fix for this?

Best,

Doremus

 

[bernard_L]

I used spot meter on camera and exposed for shadows

Generally, this will be too extreme (see my previous post and others). But negative film (bw or color) is so tolerant to overexposure that you will still get away with it. Possibly your pics will look like those of Massimo Vitali
http://www.massimovitali.com/portfolio

 

[photoloveart]

Generally, this will be too extreme (see my previous post and others). But negative film (bw or color) is so tolerant to overexposure that you will still get away with it. Possibly your pics will look like those of Massimo Vitali
http://www.massimovitali.com/portfolio

man, love that look.