Help on "Expose for shadows develop for hightlights"

photoloveart · Sep 15, 2015

Hello, I just started using film. I want to take B&W landscape photos. For now, I will not be developing my own film. It will be sent to a lab. Can I still use the "Expose for shadows and develop for highlights" technique. Can I still use the "Zone System" ? What I was planning on doing is get exposure readings for correct zones of shadows and highlights then just use an exposure value in between. Will that work ?

Xmas · Sep 15, 2015

The proper thing to do is read all the zone books.

Developing at home is easy taking pictures way more difficult.

Knowing to move the tripod one foot to left is way important.

If you have high contrast senic like four corners then you need to spot zone 1 shadow, for exposure and develop to keep your highest zone just off shoulder of film as per Ansell.

If I have a sunny day in city street I need to spot a zone 1 as sunny side or dark side of street can be way difficult.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

If you are using roll film just divide the ISO by two.

coigach · Sep 15, 2015

Or you could go for the easier approach. Use the camera's internal meter (assuming it has one!), shoot a few rolls, become familiar on how things work out, then you can get a bit more creative with metering as you become more confident. You can swot up on the zone system too at this point.... Above all, have fun. Welcome to APUG.

bdial · Sep 15, 2015

What I was planning on doing is get exposure readings for correct zones of shadows and highlights then just use an exposure value in between. Will that work ?

It would likely work, but it will really just be confusing.
Using the zone system fully requires that you have a lot of control over the processing, which you will not, until you're doing your own.
Also, it's difficult, but not impossible, to apply with roll film.

I would recommend a slightly different approach;
Be aware that your meter is more or less calibrated to render what it looks at as middle grey (18% grey).
Look at the scene you want to photograph, determine what you want to record as 18% grey and meter that.
In zone terms you are placing that portion of the picture on middle grey, or zone V.
As you get more experienced in metering specific areas to get the result you want, you'll understand what scenes may need compensation to get better shadows or highlights.

For reading material, find a copy of Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop. For a beginner it is a much clearer introduction to the Zone System than books like Adam's The Negative.

darkosaric · Sep 15, 2015

Welcome to APUG .
If you will not develop film, but lab - you don't have much control. Just shoot one test roll of one scene with some under and over expose and see what will come from the lab, and then you know how to measure exposure in consideration with the results from the lab.

bernard_L · Sep 15, 2015

The proper thing to do is read all the zone books.

That should keep you occupied for about a year, during which time you won't be taking photos. A joke (at least I hope).

Simple advice.
- don't let your meter be fooled by vast expanses of luminous sky: while metering exclude sky, then frame as you like.
- sunny 16 (google if you don't know) should be, for landscape, sunny 11, because greenery is darker than the standard "average subject"
- "expose for shadows" must be taken with a grain of salt. If said shadows occupy, say, 5% or less of the scene, and/or, more important, they do not matter too much in the image (as you "visualize" it) just meter normally. If the scene is,say, 30% shadows 70% sunlit, meter for shadows, then expose 1 stop under with respect to that reading; that should be approx 2 stop over the sunlit reading. If shadows are the main scene element just meter for the shadows; that should be 3 stops over sunlit reading.
-special case; snow landscape. Some say meter snow and expose 1 stop over (Zone VI placement); I would rather expose 2 stops over (Z VII placement).
- 2 stops under ideal exposure -> poor negative. 2 stops over ideal exposure -> near-perfect negative (except longer enlarger times).
- "If you are using roll film just divide the ISO by two." +1 on that. Easy, if the stuff on shadow placement looks too complicated to start with.
- "Look at the scene you want to photograph, determine what you want to record as 18% grey and meter that.". +1 on that one too. That's visualization and placement. Another way to achieve the same goal as described above (after "expose for shadows").
- Developing BW film yourself is easy and only requires to be consistent; you will likely get better results than the average lab. Not to speak of money savings.
- as already said in previous post(s), leave aside the fine points of Zone System; forget the "develop for highlights" part

Enjoy

DannL. · Sep 15, 2015

I highly recommend Chris Johnson's "The Practical Zone System" ISBN 0-240-80328-0. You can acquire these inexpensively via used book sales online, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and even eBay. ie; several dollars plus shipping. Just after a short while reading this book, my understanding of the system increased ten fold. Very well written.

RobC · Sep 15, 2015

landscapes with bright skies and very bright clouds tend to have a longer SBR than the so called "average" (not that such a thing exists)

So you really would benefit from a softer negative than normal. But, and it is a big BUT, if you aren't developing and wet printing your own film then it hardly matters about development and metering except you mustn't underexpose. I assume you will be scanning and if you aren't intending to wet print in the future, then just use box speed and scan the result.

But then again, if you intend to wet print the negs at some point in the future, then pull your film speed by one stop ( i.e. use half box ISO speed) and tell lab to pull development by one stop. That should give you better negs from landscape which make wet printing easier.
Then use an incident meter and don't try and place zones, just use incident reading for exposure. That should work out for you 95% of the time.
If you need greater precision then you will need a spot meter and all the learning curve and testing that accompanies it for it to be a worthwhile exercise. Without all that extra work and learning you'll be better off with an incident meter.

If you have a spot meter then a big shortcut is to pull by one stop as suggested above and meter and expose for a highlight (zone 7) except where the SBR is greater than 10 stops in which case meter and expose for a zone 3. This works well for roll film and makes negs easily printable by producing a slightly soft neg most of the time.

There's a 1001 ways to skin a cat and everyone has their preferred way of doing it. This is just my prefered way for roll film.

Alan Klein · Sep 15, 2015

I use an outside lab with my medium format film. They develop "normal" although pushing and pulling are available from them. I don't use the zone system but I always bracket my shots.

Bill Burk · Sep 15, 2015

I believe you can use the Zone System and send the film to a lab. There's a paragraph on that in this article.

I don't get too much into the actual metering in this article because that's well covered by other books, articles and people.

But once you decide how to expose and develop, you can translate the Zone System calls and notation into something the lab can do.

Now if you are using multigrade paper, you can make up a lot of the differences between shots on a roll, by using different printing filter choices as you make prints. This is why many people "always develop to N-1" (or a contrast index 0.5).

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

photoloveart · Sep 15, 2015

wow....

glad I join this site, finally straight answers. thx guys. I think for now since i'm not going to be developing i'll need go route some of u suggested.

one thing that threw me off (kept reading expose for shadows) a bit was another photographer shared their exposure technique w/ B&W. she exposes for the highlights not shadows in studio and outdoors using incident meter....portrait work.

Jim Jones · Sep 15, 2015

I suggest studying the basics of metering exposure, and let the lab develop normally at first. If the lab also makes the prints, this complicates your analysis of negative exposure. Competent printing masks many film problems. Making the print is an extension of exposing and developing the negative. If the results indicate a need for fine tuning, the Zone System is one, but not the only, approach. Different photographers have widely different techniques for achieving good results. The great portrait photographer Yousuf Karsh underexposed his negatives by some standards, but developed them to give strong highlight contrast. This demands precise exposure and developing. The ancient "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights" works for many of us who are satisfied with less than Karsh's results.

photoloveart · Sep 15, 2015

darkosaric said:
Welcome to APUG .
If you will not develop film, but lab - you don't have much control. Just shoot one test roll of one scene with some under and over expose and see what will come from the lab, and then you know how to measure exposure in consideration with the results from the lab.

now that's easy, thanks ! :munch:

MattKing · Sep 15, 2015

For someone new to this, using lab development, it will be more useful to express it as "expose to protect the shadows, and let the development determine the highlights".

And be careful with advice that indicates you should meter for the highlights. That is much, much more appropriate for transparency film, or digital.

Doc W · Sep 15, 2015

When I got into photography, the first thing I learned was how to develop film. Sometime later, when I could not develop my own and had to go to a lab, I was shocked by how bland the prints were. When I bracketed my exposure, the lab would put it through a machine that adjusted the light and pretty much obscured my bracketing. For this reason, I would get only a contact sheet. When the same light applies to all negatives, you can see better how your bracketing worked and you can learn from it. I don't know if this still applies, but it worked for me during that period. Do labs still do contact sheets or is it all digital? In any case, you need to develop a relationship with the lab and let them know what you are trying to do.

I know that you said you cannot develop film right now, but honestly, you can load film into a tank in a black bag and you really don't need a lot of space to develop it. Most of us started out developing film in darkrooms the size of a closet. In fact, most of them were closets. It is not hard and it will make a huge difference in your b&w landscapes.

RobC · Sep 15, 2015

MattKing said:
For someone new to this, using lab development, it will be more useful to express it as "expose to protect the shadows, and let the development determine the highlights".

And be careful with advice that indicates you should meter for the highlights. That is much, much more appropriate for transparency film, or digital.

And be careful with advice that indicates you should meter for the shadows becasue much more important are your midtones and highlights which an incident meter is keyed to anyway.

Bob Carnie · Sep 15, 2015

Confusing yet??

I will add my 2cents that may even confuse the issue further.

1. I always consider the lighting ratio of the original scene , whether natural light- tungston light- or flash to be the most important factor in visualization.

by knowing this ratio IMHO you have clear choices

2. Know what kind of print you want to make- High Contrast- full midtone- Low contrast.

Once you have these two ingredients firmly set in your mind then you need to decide how you want to expose and develop the film.
Lots of good advice above , but its varied and requires a lot of practice and bracketing at first to understand the first two relationships.

3. I split print with a low and high filter and based on the negative and factor 2. how I want the print to look - I use a % of low and high filters.

for strong contrast I will hit the 5 filter 4 times longer than the low filter
for mid tone contrast I will hit the 5 filter 2 times longer than the low filter
for low contrast or contrasty negatives I will hit the 5 filter equal or less than the low filter.

Basically I am print by a method I consider to be called Print Contrast Ratio. where the base time stays the same and I adjust the amount based on negative and final print desire.

So in conclusion- the final PRINT CONTRAST RATIO is determined by how well I have envisioned the scene and how well I have exposed and developed the negative.
If all works well then everything works out.

Bob

photoloveart · Sep 15, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
Confusing yet??

I will add my 2cents that may even confuse the issue further.

1. I always consider the lighting ratio of the original scene , whether natural light- tungston light- or flash to be the most important factor in visualization.

by knowing this ratio IMHO you have clear choices

2. Know what kind of print you want to make- High Contrast- full midtone- Low contrast.

Once you have these two ingredients firmly set in your mind then you need to decide how you want to expose and develop the film.
Lots of good advice above , but its varied and requires a lot of practice and bracketing at first to understand the first two relationships.

3. I split print with a low and high filter and based on the negative and factor 2. how I want the print to look - I use a % of low and high filters.

for strong contrast I will hit the 5 filter 4 times longer than the low filter
for mid tone contrast I will hit the 5 filter 2 times longer than the low filter
for low contrast or contrasty negatives I will hit the 5 filter equal or less than the low filter.

Basically I am print by a method I consider to be called Print Contrast Ratio. where the base time stays the same and I adjust the amount based on negative and final print desire.

So in conclusion- the final PRINT CONTRAST RATIO is determined by how well I have envisioned the scene and how well I have exposed and developed the negative.
If all works well then everything works out.

Bob

no, making sense. i already sent a color and B&W roll out to lab w/ different techniques i leaned on different sites including this one. some frames used camera meter, other hand held and 16 rule. recorded all my shots. once I get rolls back, i'll better understand hopefully

Alan Klein · Sep 15, 2015

Alan Klein said:
I use an outside lab with my medium format film. They develop "normal" although pushing and pulling are available from them. I don't use the zone system but I always bracket my shots.

I forgot to mention that I also get a contact print from the lab as well. Of course, not being an expert at this, I'm never sure what the contact means. Since I don't know what the lab did when they printed it, could their print process effect the print and fool me as to which is the best exposure?

Pioneer · Sep 15, 2015

For what they are worth, here some of my thoughts.

1. The Zone System was envisioned for single sheet, large format film exposure. You can use it with roll films but you will not get the full benefit.
2. Buy an inexpensive 4x5 large format camera to learn with if you are serious about the zone system.
3. Use one camera, one lens, one film and one handheld meter (spotmeter preferrably) to work with for awhile.
4. Make sure your camera works right. I wasted considerable time at first because my shutter was inconsistent.
5. Learn to develop your own film as soon as possible. It is not that hard.
6. In the meantime call your lab and explain to the manager what you are trying to do. They can make or break your experiments.
7. Take the steps needed to learn the correct exposure index for your film, camera and lens combo.
8. Forget fine art for now. Start learning how to visualize and use your camera to get what you see in your imagination.
9. Buy or make a fake flower arrangement with various color flowers. Your wife can help. It may be the last time you talk for awhile.
10. Using the flower arrangement, try making various types of photos by varying your exposure techniques and your developing methods.
11. Once you can visualize and capture a photograph that is full contrast, low contrast, high key, low key, etc., move to trying various filters, lights, etc. You can even take your flowers outside. (Wear sunscreen though.)
12. When you can visualize a photo or an effect and capture it on film technically then you can move on to printing.

May the Good Lord have mercy on you and your family.

Of course there is still time to drop this entire silly idea and just go out and make snapshots.

EDIT - BTW this is not exactly how I started but I really didn't learn anything useful until I did. I guess I am just a bit denser than the normal photographer.

photoloveart · Sep 15, 2015

Pioneer said:
For what they are worth, here some of my thoughts.

1. The Zone System was envisioned for single sheet, large format film exposure. You can use it with roll films but you will not get the full benefit.
2. Buy an inexpensive 4x5 large format camera to learn with if you are serious about the zone system.
3. Use one camera, one lens, one film and one handheld meter (spotmeter preferrably) to work with for awhile.
4. Make sure your camera works right. I wasted considerable time at first because my shutter was inconsistent.
5. Learn to develop your own film as soon as possible. It is not that hard.
6. In the meantime call your lab and explain to the manager what you are trying to do. They can make or break your experiments.
7. Take the steps needed to learn the correct exposure index for your film, camera and lens combo.
8. Forget fine art for now. Start learning how to visualize and use your camera to get what you see in your imagination.
9. Buy or make a fake flower arrangement with various color flowers. Your wife can help. It may be the last time you talk for awhile.
10. Using the flower arrangement, try making various types of photos by varying your exposure techniques and your developing methods.
11. Once you can visualize and capture a photograph that is full contrast, low contrast, high key, low key, etc., move to trying various filters, lights, etc. You can even take your flowers outside. (Wear sunscreen though.)
12. When you can visualize a photo or an effect and capture it on film technically then you can move on to printing.

May the Good Lord have mercy on you and your family.

Of course there is still time to drop this entire silly idea and just go out and make snapshots.

EDIT - BTW this is not exactly how I started but I really didn't learn anything useful until I did. I guess I am just a bit denser than the normal photographer.

on the last part, u convinced me not to sell my camera and take up stamp collecting, i will got out and shoot without fear, thank you sir !

coigach · Sep 15, 2015

Pioneer said:
For what they are worth, here some of my thoughts.

1. The Zone System was envisioned for single sheet, large format film exposure. You can use it with roll films but you will not get the full benefit.
2. Buy an inexpensive 4x5 large format camera to learn with if you are serious about the zone system.
3. Use one camera, one lens, one film and one handheld meter (spotmeter preferrably) to work with for awhile.
4. Make sure your camera works right. I wasted considerable time at first because my shutter was inconsistent.
5. Learn to develop your own film as soon as possible. It is not that hard.
6. In the meantime call your lab and explain to the manager what you are trying to do. They can make or break your experiments.
7. Take the steps needed to learn the correct exposure index for your film, camera and lens combo.
8. Forget fine art for now. Start learning how to visualize and use your camera to get what you see in your imagination.
9. Buy or make a fake flower arrangement with various color flowers. Your wife can help. It may be the last time you talk for awhile.
10. Using the flower arrangement, try making various types of photos by varying your exposure techniques and your developing methods.
11. Once you can visualize and capture a photograph that is full contrast, low contrast, high key, low key, etc., move to trying various filters, lights, etc. You can even take your flowers outside. (Wear sunscreen though.)
12. When you can visualize a photo or an effect and capture it on film technically then you can move on to printing.

May the Good Lord have mercy on you and your family.

Of course there is still time to drop this entire silly idea and just go out and make snapshots.

EDIT - BTW this is not exactly how I started but I really didn't learn anything useful until I did. I guess I am just a bit denser than the normal photographer.

Superb - your dry wit made me chuckle.... Wise advice too.

NedL · Sep 15, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
Confusing yet??
.....

3. I split print with a low and high filter and based on the negative and factor 2. how I want the print to look - I use a % of low and high filters.

for strong contrast I will hit the 5 filter 4 times longer than the low filter
for mid tone contrast I will hit the 5 filter 2 times longer than the low filter
for low contrast or contrasty negatives I will hit the 5 filter equal or less than the low filter.

Basically I am print by a method I consider to be called Print Contrast Ratio. where the base time stays the same and I adjust the amount based on negative and final print desire.

.....

This is very interesting. It's probably worth it's own thread at some point. I find myself thinking in terms like what you wrote. It is fascinating that if you develop your film for somewhat lower contrast ( and almost inevitably thinner negatives ) then bump up the contrast using "strong contrast" printing, the results and the control over results are different than using thicker negatives with more contrast and more "low contrast" printing.... I seems to me that the "sweet spot" depends on both the film and of course the scene... and I could be totally wrong and off my rocker here but I seem to lean in one direction with 120 film and another with 35mm film...

Bob Carnie · Sep 15, 2015

On my web page I have tried a bunch of videos..

The one that got away was the one on PRINT CONTRAST RATIO VS ORIGINAL SCENE LIGHTING RATIO.
I am going to try to do this video again as it really shows my thinking and my method of split printing.

Its hard to explain with words but once done on camera it is visually worth the effort.. not sure when I will get around to it.

QUOTE=NedL;1953788584]This is very interesting. It's probably worth it's own thread at some point. I find myself thinking in terms like what you wrote. It is fascinating that if you develop your film for somewhat lower contrast ( and almost inevitably thinner negatives ) then bump up the contrast using "strong contrast" printing, the results and the control over results are different than using thicker negatives with more contrast and more "low contrast" printing.... I seems to me that the "sweet spot" depends on both the film and of course the scene... and I could be totally wrong and off my rocker here but I seem to lean in one direction with 120 film and another with 35mm film...[/QUOTE]

NedL · Sep 15, 2015

Bob, I look forward to seeing it if it happens!

Help on "Expose for shadows develop for hightlights"

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