Help Needed - very thin negs

Hi all,
I've just developed a roll of Ilford PAN F+, shot at 50 ISO, and the negs are extremely thin.

Very bad practise I know, but I didn't measure the temperature of the water. I have just measured it, and it's around 18 degrees C.
I used Jessops econodev 2, at 1+49, which I've always done without problems.

As far as I can see, There are two possibilities;
Under temperature water, or the developer has degraded.
I doubt the latter, as I have used the stuff recently, although I am "scraping the bottom of the barrel", so to speak, and thus there is quite an air gap in the bottle, even when it's squashed.

Can anyone suggest any other possible problems?

Is it worth trying to intensify the negs? - I have a bottle of chromium intensifier in the chemical cupboard.
I have heard that toning may also help; If so, should I use Sepia or blue? - I presume sepia is better, if adjusted to a very dark brown?

This has taught me a lesson; I'm afraid my technique has become rather sloppy of late, and I need to improve it.
Fortunately, this "warning" has come on something non-critical, which I can re-shoot (it's a set of documents, which are safe in the studio at work).

Any suggestions on a possible fix (or damage mitigation method ) would be greatly apreciated.

Underdeveloped negs intensify better than underexposed negs, there's shadow density there to work with. If it's bad thin you might try a two step, bleach and redevelop in a staining developer, then use something like a selenium toner or chromium intensifier on the redeveloped silver image if the neg is still too weak.

glbeas said:

Underdeveloped negs intensify better than underexposed negs, there's shadow density there to work with. If it's bad thin you might try a two step, bleach and redevelop in a staining developer, then use something like a selenium toner or chromium intensifier on the redeveloped silver image if the neg is still too weak.

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It's definitely underdeveloped, the edge markings are as faint as the image is.
it's also a very bad thin. I think I'd have difficulty getting any print even on grade 5, let alone a good print!

Can anyone suggest any appropriate bleaches and staining devs?
I know of caffenol C, but are there any commercial ones - or anything you can add to commercial ones?

ben-s said:

Hi all,
I used Jessops econodev 2, at 1+49, which I've always done without problems.

As far as I can see, There are two possibilities;
Under temperature water, or the developer has degraded.
I doubt the latter, as I have used the stuff recently, although I am "scraping the bottom of the barrel", so to speak, and thus there is quite an air gap in the bottle, even when it's squashed.

Can anyone suggest any other possible problems?

Is it worth trying to intensify the negs? - I have a bottle of chromium .

Click to expand...

Hi Ben,

I've always liked Jessops chemicals, particularly Econotol, and it's a shame that it's no longer available. I'm eeking out my last bottle. I know nothing about the chemistry involved, but certainly Econotol gets less active as the level in the bottle goes down over a period of weeks/months.

Regarding temperature, at this time of the year the ambient temperature in my kitchen (where I do my film developing, much to the disgruntlement of 'Er Indoors) is whatever it is outside, ie it has no heating, so even if I start to develop at 20 degs the temp falls over the development period when we're in a cold snap, as we are at the moment unless I sit the tank in a larger volume of water at the correct temp (ie a saucepan).

I once dabbled with intensifier but always found any improvement to be minimal, and unless the negs are of a flying saucer landing on your front lawn, it's probably not worth the hassle.

Best wishes,

Steve

I too was sad when they discontinued econotol.
The developer oxidises, and thus becomes less active - to counter this, I've been trying to find a bottle that compresses better than the stock ones.
I've not been successful, - the only solution I can think of is a small accordion bottle, but the smallest (and also largest) that jessops do is 1L. I'll have to try fisher scientific or similar.

This is my punishment for trying to develop negs at midnight
I normally develop in the bathroom, but "'er indoors" (by which I mean my mother) wanted it. grrr
The pipes to the bathroom run indoors, and hold more than enough water at approx 20 degrees, so I'm usually ok.
Last night in the kitchen, where the pipes are on the outside wall, I guess the temperature was just too low.

Personally I don't think those accordion bottles are worth a flip. They are plastic which has a tendency to be oxygen permeable and the pleats will get pinholes in them after a few years of use. A glass bottle with a hard plastic lid seems best and if you have something to use as a displacement gas, like nitrogen or Protectan spray you can exclude the oxygen very well and keep for extended times. Anyway if you use the developer so little as to keep partially used solutions for that long you need to look at using liquid concentrates like Rodinal or PyrocatHD or HC 110 unmixed and using small mixes one shot. That gives you a fair shot at having fresh strength chemicals every time you need them.

ben-s said:

It's definitely underdeveloped, the edge markings are as faint as the image is.
it's also a very bad thin. I think I'd have difficulty getting any print even on grade 5, let alone a good print!

Can anyone suggest any appropriate bleaches and staining devs?
I know of caffenol C, but are there any commercial ones - or anything you can add to commercial ones?

Click to expand...

Do a search in the threads, theres a few talking about doing the bleach redevelop with recommendations for the best bleaches and developers. A pyro developer will give you a very good stain and the process can be repeated several times to increase the stain effect. You will need a rehalogenating bleach to do this, it's covered in those threads and I don't remember offhand what the specifics are.

glbeas said:

Personally I don't think those accordion bottles are worth a flip. They are plastic which has a tendency to be oxygen permeable and the pleats will get pinholes in them after a few years of use. A glass bottle with a hard plastic lid seems best and if you have something to use as a displacement gas, like nitrogen or Protectan spray you can exclude the oxygen very well and keep for extended times. Anyway if you use the developer so little as to keep partially used solutions for that long you need to look at using liquid concentrates like Rodinal or PyrocatHD or HC 110 unmixed and using small mixes one shot. That gives you a fair shot at having fresh strength chemicals every time you need them.

Click to expand...

I was actually talking about the concentrates here, not working strength solution.
I keep my stop and fix at working strength in accordion bottles, but mix up fresh dev when I need it, and all of my b&w is done one-shot.
The concentrate has a tendancy to oxidise in the bottle, even when it's squashed.
It's OK for about the first 250ml, as you can squash all the air out, but after that, you begin to get an ever increasing air gap, and decreasing quantity of dev.
I use the stuff pretty well diluted (1+49), and don't often make more than 500ml, so a 500ml bottle of concentrate lasts quite a while.
This is another reason I preferred the other dev I mentioned above. It was used at (IIRC) 1+9 or 1+14, so the concentrate didn't have the chance to oxidise.
I'll have to shoot more film

On the original topic, I found the best frames (unsurprisingly those that had the flash set at TTL +1EV), and ran them through the chrome intensifier. They are now perfectly usable, and I don't need the others.
I'll have a look at the bleaches and staining devs, as I might need them again in the future.
I'll just chalk it up to experience, tidy up my technique, and be glad that the negs weren't anything crucial or once-in-a-lifetime.

ben-s said:

I was actually talking about the concentrates here, not working strength solution.
I keep my stop and fix at working strength in accordion bottles, but mix up fresh dev when I need it, and all of my b&w is done one-shot.
The concentrate has a tendancy to oxidise in the bottle, even when it's squashed.
It's OK for about the first 250ml, as you can squash all the air out, but after that, you begin to get an ever increasing air gap, and decreasing quantity of dev.
I use the stuff pretty well diluted (1+49), and don't often make more than 500ml, so a 500ml bottle of concentrate lasts quite a while.
This is another reason I preferred the other dev I mentioned above. It was used at (IIRC) 1+9 or 1+14, so the concentrate didn't have the chance to oxidise.
I'll have to shoot more film

On the original topic, I found the best frames (unsurprisingly those that had the flash set at TTL +1EV), and ran them through the chrome intensifier. They are now perfectly usable, and I don't need the others.
I'll have a look at the bleaches and staining devs, as I might need them again in the future.
I'll just chalk it up to experience, tidy up my technique, and be glad that the negs weren't anything crucial or once-in-a-lifetime.

Click to expand...

Glad you had some success! The main reason I went to Rodinal was it's extreme longevity and I think the Pyrocat HD in glycol will be just as long lived. I used to have similar problems with concentrates going bad.

glbeas said:

Glad you had some success! The main reason I went to Rodinal was it's extreme longevity and I think the Pyrocat HD in glycol will be just as long lived. I used to have similar problems with concentrates going bad.

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I'm just in the process of getting the bits together to make some parodinal.
It doesn't have the extreme shelf life of rodinal, but it is supposed to last quite a while. It will be an interesting experiment, anyway.

glbeas said:

Personally I don't think those accordion bottles are worth a flip. They are plastic which has a tendency to be oxygen permeable and the pleats will get pinholes in them after a few years of use. A glass bottle with a hard plastic lid seems best and if you have something to use as a displacement gas, like nitrogen or Protectan spray you can exclude the oxygen very well and keep for extended times.

Click to expand...

Balls!
No, I'm not being rude to anyone, merely making a suggestion. I use plastic air-displacement balls (about half an inch dia.) in the original developer bottles once the level has dropped too much to squash them effectively.

I have wondered from time to time about the feasibility of opening a fresh bottle of developer and decanting it straight away into one-shot quantities for storage until use. Plastic 35mm film pots contain almost exactly one fluid ounce, a convenient quantity and the one on which I base most of my dilutions.

Best wishes,

Steve

It might be practical for you to find a developer you can mix from scratch. Ryuji Suzuki has formulated a very good one-shot developer which mixes in a heartbeat and is cheap to make. His DS2 formula my be found in the Wiki on his site www.silvergrain.org. Others will point out that he has made refinements to his formulas, and he has, but EASILY MIXED and fresh DS2 will probably beat stale anything else and give absolutely repeatable results..good luck..Evan Clarke