Help me understand the provenance of Legacy Pro and Eco Pro products?

[dcy]

This is just idle curiosity on my part, but I have been reading the MSDS of Legacy Pro and Eco Pro products and I'm seeing a tangled web of ownership. Here's what I have so far:

(1) "Legacy Pro" seems to be a house brand of Freestyle

The MSDS of Legacy Pro Sepia II Toner, powder developer, soft paper developer, and liquid paper developer all say "Freestyle" right in the heading, and name Freestyle as the distributor. Incidentally, they are all made by PSI (will come back to this later).


(2) "Eco Pro" has a more confusing provenance

The MSDS of every Eco Pro product has "Legacy Pro®" in the header. That points to Freestyle.

The MSDS of Eco Pro liquid paper developer, fixer, stop bath, and hypo wash all name Digitaltruth as the distributor.

The Eco Pro fixer and hypo wash share an instruction instruction sheet sheet that proudly highlights the name of Digitatruth in the heading, and also says "Copyright Digital Truth".

The MSDS of the fixer suggests that the manufacturer is something called "Synergy Graphics" but the fonts and layout make it clear that this is exactly the same Word template as the MSDS for all the Legacy Pro products, with just the PSI logo replaced by "Synergy Graphics". The other MSDS's don't name a manufacturer, but clearly use the same Word template as all the others.

The MSDS of Eco Pro powder paper developer lists Freestyle as the distributor, has the PSI logo, and looks identical to all the Legacy Pro MSDS's. The instruction sheet says "FS Distribution" which is part of Freestyle.



So... Does anyone know the relationship between Digital Truth vs Freestyle vs Legacy Pro vs Eco Pro? I have not been able to find any ownership or even business relationship between Digitaltruth and Freestyle Photo, but clearly they both have some sort of claim to the Eco Pro line of products.

 

[MattKing]

Most of Freestyle's business is as a distributor, not as a retailer.
Most likely the same applies to Digital Truth, but I don't know as much about them.
And most of the MSD (as they are now known) info we tend to see comes from the distributors.
PSI is probably Photo Systems, who make photo chemicals for whoever contracts with them to have them made, as well as making photo chemicals for sale under their various house brands including Unicolor and, as of recently, Kodak.
Photo Systems doesn't have any meaningful distribution capabilities, so they contract with others to do that. For example, they have contracted with Cinestill to do worldwide distribution and marketing of the Kodak branded stuff.

Very few products of this nature are made by the people whose name is on the package. And in the few situations where there might be several choices for who is doing the manufacture, you really can't count on their being changes, without the end user being advised.

 

[relistan]

AFAICR The Eco Pro chemistry started out as developers only, which were originally Ryuji Suzuki's Silvergrain developers. The Eco Pro name first showed up on Digitaltruth from what I recall. But it was readily available from Freestyle not long after. My guess is that they have now fully licensed that branding and are using it for other products as well. None of those companies produce chemistry. So Matt's suggestion makes sense that Photo Systems is making them.

 

[dcy]

And most of the MSD (as they are now known)

I have never seen the term "MSD". An MSDS is the Material Safety Data Sheet, so it wouldn't make sense to drop the "S" from the acronym. So the old name is SDS and they just added "M" in front for some reason.

PSI is probably Photo Systems,

Yes. When I said PSI, I was talking about "Photo Systems Inc". They use "PSI" as their acronym. The data sheets have what I believe to be PSI's older logo.

Very few products of this nature are made by the people whose name is on the package.

I know. Legacy Pro clearly seems to be Freestyle's product with the chemical manufacturing contracted out to PSI.

But for Eco Pro the relationships look really muddy. Eco Pro is a sub-brand of Legacy Pro, so you would think it's part of Freestyle, but the distributor is Digitaltruth, and instructions for a couple of Eco Pro products show Digitaltruth's name prominently in the heading and the copyright. So I am getting conflicting messages as to whether Eco Pro is Digitaltruth's product line or Freestyle's.

AFAICR The Eco Pro chemistry started out as developers only, which were originally Ryuji Suzuki's Silvergrain developers.

The Eco Pro paper developer says "Previously sold as Silvergrain Tektol Standard".

The Eco Pro name first showed up on Digitaltruth from what I recall.

I found a previous thread in Photrio that also tried to answer the question I posed. It didn't really reach a conclusion before veering off topic, but not before someone emailed Freestyle customer service and they said "EcoPro Film developer was designed by the same person who runs the Massive Dev Chart, so he might have more info available."

But it was readily available from Freestyle not long after. My guess is that they have now fully licensed that branding and are using it for other products as well. None of those companies produce chemistry. So Matt's suggestion makes sense that Photo Systems is making them.

When I said that, at least the Legacy Pro products (and possibly all others as well) are made by PSI, I was indeed referring to "Photo Systems Inc". They use "PSI" as their acronym.


Here's my best hypothesis: Someone at Digitaltruth has an idea for a developer. They do not have the distribution capacity or anything really to bring it to market. They call up Freestyle who does have distribution capacity and business connections with companies that make chemistry for photography. Freestyle uses their resources to bring Digitaltruth's idea to market under a sub brand of Legacy Pro... and come to lord knows what agreement about who owns what, and that is where all the information gets muddy.


Of course, I have no way of knowing if this is what happened. It's just my best guess. Freestyle clearly has plenty of distribution capacity and many house-branded products made by numerous external manufacturers (ex. the Arista line) whereas Digitaltruth does not appear to have any of the above. Digitaltruth doesn't even have an online store, nor do they have any other house brands aside from Eco Pro itself. But if you go to their website, you'll see Eco Pro featured quite prominently, with links to buy it from Freestyle and B&H, so they clearly treat it as their baby.


To continue my wild speculation: Perhaps the reason to make Eco Pro a sub-brand of Legacy Pro was just to establish customer confidence by linking it to an "established" brand. In this story, Freestyle is lending their name and "legitimacy" on top of their distribution channels and business links.

 

[GregY]

dcy..... i don't think the provenance of the developer will make any difference to your prints.....
Buy one or a few developers and let us know how your prints look....

 

[dcy]

dcy..... i don't think the provenance of the developer will make any difference to your prints.....
Buy one or a few developers and let us know how your prints look....

I don't understand that point of view. Don't you like to know who is behind the products you buy? If I buy a Walmart house brand product, I don't know where the factory is, but I know Walmart.

 

[GregY]

I don't understand that point of view. Don't you like to know who is behind the products you buy? If I buy a Walmart house brand product, I don't know where the factory is, but I know Walmart.

D, it's a common developer sold by a big wholesaler..
If it suits my printing style and budget that's all i need to know.
I've used Eco pro developer, fixer, wash-aid..... all worked like a charm....

 

[chuckroast]

D, it's a common developer sold by a big wholesaler..
If it suits my printing style and budget that's all i need to know.
I've used Eco pro developer, fixer, wash-aid..... all worked like a charm....

I am personally headed in a different direction. I just bought a 2l Ansco 130 kit from PF. If it works as well as claimed, I'll just start mixing up my own paper developer.

I already do this for film. That means I only depend on big manufacturers for fixer, hypo clear, and wetting agent, all of which can reasonably made at home, though rapid fix might be a challenge. The big hole left is selenium toner. Selenium is nasty stuff, especially the fumes and there is no reasonable way to make it at home.

Then again, all this assumes that PF an Artcraft are around for the long haul ...

 

[GregY]

I am personally headed in a different direction. I just bought a 2l Ansco 130 kit from PF. If it works as well as claimed, I'll just start mixing up my own paper developer.

I already do this for film. That means I only depend on big manufacturers for fixer, hypo clear, and wetting agent, all of which can reasonably made at home, though rapid fix might be a challenge. The big hole left is selenium toner. Selenium is nasty stuff, especially the fumes and there is no reasonable way to make it at home.

Then again, all this assumes that PF an Artcraft are around for the long haul ...

CR, we hope so. Sometimes i use easily accessible products for test print runs.
Bud & the PF team have been a godsend for darkroom workers.
I have a lifetime subscription for Pyrocat HD, & PF (Ansco)130....
although i have some cans of LPD left....for a rainy day.....

 

[Pieter12]

I suggest other than spending time trying to hunt down the "provenance" of your chemicals, you go out and take photos. Much more rewarding.

 

[chuckroast]

CR, we hope so. Sometimes i use easily accessible products for test print runs.
Bud & the PF team have been a godsend for darkroom workers.
I have a lifetime subscription for Pyrocat HD, & PF (Ansco)130....
although i have some cans of LPD left....for a rainy day.....

The problem is that they are the only ones still making glycin and you cannot reasonably stock that stuff up and store it indefinitely.

 

[GregY]

The problem is that they are the only ones still making glycin and you cannot reasonably stock that stuff up and store it indefinitely.

Let's hope they keep at it. I always store my glycin in the fridge.

 

[chuckroast]

Let's hope they keep at it. I always store my glycin in the fridge.

How long have you found it will keep that way?

 

[MattKing]

I have never seen the term "MSD". An MSDS is the Material Safety Data Sheet, so it wouldn't make sense to drop the "S" from the acronym. So the old name is SDS and they just added "M" in front for some reason.

Sorry, you are absolutely correct.
MSDS has been replaced by SDS, not MSD.

 

[GregY]

How long have you found it will keep that way?

i've had PF kits (bought multiples)......separated the gylcin (stored in the fridge)..... 6+months later the glycin had not changed colour...& when mixed the 130 was perfect.

 

[chuckroast]

i've had PF kits (bought multiples)......separated the gylcin..... 6+months later the glycin had not changed colour...& when mixed the 130 was perfect.

My first purchase of a PF 130 kit had glycin that was sort of cocoa colored. When I mixed it, it was dark coffee colored. Bud at PF told me it probably was ok but I would need to try it.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

The problem is that they are the only ones still making glycin and you cannot reasonably stock that stuff up and store it indefinitely.

That's also my problem with Ansco 130.

(Side note, @chuckroast, if I'm not mistaken, you like Fomabrom Variant 111. I found Ansco 130 to work wonderfully well with the 112, matte version. Curious to know your impressions once you do a few prints)

 

[GregY]

My first purchase of a PF 130 kit had glycin that was sort of cocoa colored. When I mixed it, it was dark coffee colored. Bud at PF told me it probably was ok but I would need to try it.

my glycin has always been a light sand colour, & I always buy it directly rather through re-sellers.

 

[chuckroast]

That's also my problem with Ansco 130.

(Side note, @chuckroast, if I'm not mistaken, you like Fomabrom Variant 111. I found Ansco 130 to work wonderfully well with the 112, matte version. Curious to know your impressions once you do a few prints)

Hopefully, I will find out this weekend

 

[dcy]

D, it's a common developer sold by a big wholesaler..
If it suits my printing style and budget that's all i need to know.

To each their own. Everyone's different. Sometimes I like to think about who is behind products I buy. I find it interesting.

I suggest other than spending time trying to hunt down the "provenance" of your chemicals, you go out and take photos. Much more rewarding.

That's you. Everyone's different. You don't know what others find rewarding. Would you have said the same thing if I had asked a question about who Harman is, or who Kodak Alaris is, or who owns Inoviscoat? Perhaps you would. But you know that sometimes people want to think about the entities that makes the products they buy, and it is not necessarily because of some tangible practical application in the near future.

 

[GregY]

That's also my problem with Ansco 130.

(Side note, @chuckroast, if I'm not mistaken, you like Fomabrom Variant 111. I found Ansco 130 to work wonderfully well with the 112, matte version. Curious to know your impressions once you do a few prints)

AB, 130 + 111/112 is a match made in heaven!

 

[chuckroast]

my glycin has always been a light sand colour, & I always buy it directly rather through re-sellers.

When initially mixed, what should the color of the stock solution look like?

 

[Alan Johnson]

To each their own. Everyone's different. Sometimes I like to think about who is behind products I buy. I find it interesting.

Here's Ryuji on the subject:

silvergrain chemicals

is anyone out there using the sivergrain products available on digital truth website.i am very interested in them due to the eco-friendly claim. a couple of questions.are they excellent products.and what are your experiences.i dont have a favorite paper yet so i am open to what papers work best...

www.photrio.com

Eco-Pro Chemicals...

Does anyone have any experience with Eco-Pro chemicals? I didn't know 'green' chemistry existed until I received the Freestyle catalog. I'd like to be as 'green' as I can, and wondered how these performed.

www.photrio.com

 

[GregY]

When initially mixed, what should the color of the stock solution look like?

straw colour

 

[Alex Benjamin]

So as not to hijack this thread by @dcy I started another thread on Ansco 130.

Anso 130 user experience, questions, comments, appreciation...

Following comments by @chuckroast and @GregY in another thread, I thought I'd be nice to start a thread solely devoted to this interesting developer. Since I brew my own, I'll start by posting the formula: Normal use is 1+1.

www.photrio.com