Help me understand the provenance of Legacy Pro and Eco Pro products?

GregY said:

dcy..... i don't think the provenance of the developer will make any difference to your prints.....
Buy one or a few developers and let us know how your prints look....

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I made many contact prints using some amidol, purchased through this website, that was linked to a large purchase that Brett Weston made many decades ago. It finally reached the end of its useful life about 3 years ago, so now I'm using fresh amidol. Let me assure you that the prints made with the amidol linked to Weston absolutely, positively glow.

Mike Lopez said:

I made many contact prints using some amidol, purchased through this website, that was linked to a large purchase that Brett Weston made many decades ago. It finally reached the end of its useful life about 3 years ago, so now I'm using fresh amidol. Let me assure you that the prints made with the amidol linked to Weston absolutely, positively glow.

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Mike, i've used amidol and still have maybe a pound some as well as Kodak Azo.... but i don't think dcy is at that stage in his journey....
but please sprinkle some Weston stuff in my direction ....i'm all in when it comes to darkroom magic!

GregY said:

Let's hope they keep at it. I always store my glycin in the fridge.

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I keep mine in the freezer.

dcy said:

I don't understand that point of view. Don't you like to know who is behind the products you buy? If I buy a Walmart house brand product, I don't know where the factory is, but I know Walmart.

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For relatively simple photo-chemical products, the distributors may very well switch from manufacturer to manufacturer, depending on what is currently easy to obtain and most reasonably priced at the wholesale level. If they have more than one reliable and dependable source, why not?

Alan9940 said:

I keep mine in the freezer.

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I have a dedicated film fridge that doesn't get constantly opened & the glycin sits right underneath the freezer tray part.

GregY said:

I have a dedicated film fridge that doesn't get constantly opened & the glycin sits right underneath the freezer tray part.

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I only mentioned the freezer because it seems to keep a long time there. I haven't opened mine in awhile, but last time I used it it was as white as new, and it was a few years old at the time.

GregY said:

Mike, i've used amidol and still have maybe a pound some as well as Kodak Azo.... but i don't think dcy is at that stage in his journey....

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Indeed.

My new bottle of Eco Pro developer arrived a few days ago. Just in time as my Ilford Multigrade is getting low.

MattKing said:

For relatively simple photo-chemical products, the distributors may very well switch from manufacturer to manufacturer, depending on what is currently easy to obtain and most reasonably priced at the wholesale level. If they have more than one reliable and dependable source, why not?

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Indeed. So when I say I like to know who is behind the product, I don't mean who the current contractor is. I mean, "who makes the decisions?"

Take Freestyle for example. My current understanding is that they've been around for a while, they focus on film photography, and for their house brands they choose affordable yet well-made products. If this impression is correct, then I'd rather buy one of their house brands than some other hypothetical company that might be less reliable or less committed. Just as an example. Or I might just want to support a particular company.

dcy said:

Indeed. So when I say I like to know who is behind the product, I don't mean who the current contractor is. I mean, "who makes the decisions?"

Take Freestyle for example. My current understanding is that they've been around for a while, they focus on film photography, and for their house brands they choose affordable yet well-made products. If this impression is correct, then I'd rather buy one of their house brands than some other hypothetical company that might be less reliable or less committed. Just as an example. Or I might just want to support a particular company.

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D, you're making some assumptions there. How are you going to judge reliability?
As an example I have bought a lot of products from the Photo Formulary....a tiny company. I've bought Azo & Lodima paper from Michael Smith & Paula Chamlee.....
I've bought more from B&H than Freestyle since they pay the shipping..... which is not small change on gallons of liquid or large boxes of paper.
As mentioned with housebrands....that's just the label on the product....what's beneath the label can change at any time....

Alan Johnson said:

Here's Ryuji on the subject:

silvergrain chemicals

is anyone out there using the sivergrain products available on digital truth website.i am very interested in them due to the eco-friendly claim. a couple of questions.are they excellent products.and what are your experiences.i dont have a favorite paper yet so i am open to what papers work best...

www.photrio.com

Eco-Pro Chemicals...

Does anyone have any experience with Eco-Pro chemicals? I didn't know 'green' chemistry existed until I received the Freestyle catalog. I'd like to be as 'green' as I can, and wondered how these performed.

www.photrio.com

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Thanks!

Sorry for the dumb question, but who is Ryuji?

Basically, there was never a lot of detailed information about who manufactures chemicals for whom, nor is it really necessary. You rely on the owner/marketer/distributor to guarantee that the chemical is fit for use and that it matches the times on the chart. Freestyle clearly distributes a lot and owns or licenses some trademarks, and PSI (Photo Systems, ex Unicolor?) in Michigan appears to manufacture and possibly design photo-chemistry, but what intermediaries there are is beyond me - I don't know whether Freestyle owns the "Legacy/Eco Pro" name or just markets it. Freestyle has been around a very long time and is clearly dedicated to film, so I more or less just trust them to be suitable.

Even in the heyday of film, presumably the Kodaks and Agfas and Ilfords had chemical manufacturing and packaging facilities, but if you bought something from a smaller player like Edwal, or Diafine, or Heico Perma-Wash? Was there actually a chemical plant at the Heico office, or were they buying barrels of sodium sulfite from some larger plant, and they just diluted and bottled it? I dunno.

There has always been a lot of subcontracting in chemical manufacturing. If I buy a lab reagent chemical from Thermo Fisher Scientific, like say 99% hydroquinone (they sell it, but I'm sure it's more expensive than necessary for photo use), they'll provide a lot number and various certifications for it, but I don't know whether it came from a vat in Michigan or New Jersey or ? Equally, I assume that Photographers Formulary does not literally synthesize all the stuff it sells, or maybe any of it. They probably warehouse and package it, which is good enough for the darkroom user.

I haven't noted any issue with long-term room storage of amidol, as long as it's kept dry. There has been some bad amidol sold, but that's a different issue. I keep unopened bottles of glycin powder in the freezer, and it stays fresh without discoloration.

House brands like Freestyle's Legacy Pro sometimes do switch actual mfg sources for particular products, as needed, without necessarily informing customers of the switch. That might or might not have practical consequences, depending.

Formulary does make certain chem in house, and specifically their glycin, for sake of freshness.

GregY said:

D, you're making some assumptions there. How are you going to judge reliability?

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Reputation and past history. It's an imperfect system, but I don't think it's a bad system. What @reddesert just wrote in the first paragraph of post #36 is the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Yes, what's beneath the label can change any time, which is why I care about who decides what's beneath the label. Perhaps Freestyle will change manufacturer for Arista paper developer, but I would expect that Freestyle will make an effort to keep the product around, make sure it is fit for purpose, and that it doesn't change too radically from one batch to the next.

dcy said:

Reputation and past history. It's an imperfect system, but I don't think it's a bad system. What @reddesert just wrote in the first paragraph of post #36 is the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Yes, what's beneath the label can change any time, which is why I care about who decides what's beneath the label. Perhaps Freestyle will change manufacturer for Arista paper developer, but I would expect that Freestyle will make an effort to keep the product around, make sure it is fit for purpose, and that it doesn't change too radically from one batch to the next.

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It's a small pond..... Kodak / Ilford /Adox / B&H /Ph formulary/Keith Canham.... they're all reliable.
But i've had less than ideal customer service from Freestyle..... where they wouldn't ship to a U.S. address while I was on a photo trip...... & then after years of purchasing (they changed their computer system and lost my customer history)....wouldn't sell me the volume of paper i needed for a project.... So they're nowhere near #1 on my list.....

"that it doesn't change too radically from one batch to the next.".......they don't really have control over that.
Really they sell generic products and the only ones who care bout consistency are end users who have a workflow and don't want it upset.