Help me troubleshooting a RA-4 printing session

Hi!
I'm having some problems trying to print from color negatives.
I have acquired a Jobo CPA which helps me to keep the temperature steady and does all the manual work for me (before the Jobo, I used a Cibachrome Drum).
However, my prints display some sort of cyan/blue/purple poison and I don't know why.
Usually, these patches appear near the darkest points of the photo however sometimes they appear in the upper section of the print.
I thought that, maybe, when they appear on the upper section of the photo this may be due to how much badly I insert the paper inside the drum but for the other case?
Chemistry has been mixed two days ago, using 10/2014 concentrates stored inside a frige. Paper is from 12/2014, also stored in a fridge.
Maybe the paper is old, or the concentrates went bad?
I remember that, when mixing the RA-4 developer, its color went from dark blue to a slightly pale yellow and this mutation happened also when I poured the 5 liters in to 5 glass bottles of 1 liter of capacity and also from a glass bottle to a Jobo plastic container.

Paper also seems to react too much faster to the changing in filtration: 10 units of yellow can turn a reddish print in to a very cool one.
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Some additions:
I thought it could be chemical contamination, however I emptied and washed all the glass bottles before pouring the new solution. I also used the smell to determine which bottle was used for developer and which one for blix (this because some smell remained in the cap). Do contaminated solutions change in colour? If yes, there has not been any contamination (developer goes from pale yellow to dirty yellow).
To be noted, also, that with a starting filtration of M50Y50, the print was very red

I also thought about overdeveloping. Is this possible? I do a fully minute of developing/blixing and THEN I pour out the solutions. Unexposed edges are solid black, but I see a cyan/blue halo near them; this halo softens a lot when looked with a strong light. (it seems to disappear)

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Thanks

zehner21 said:

However, my prints display some sort of cyan/blue/purple poison and I don't know why.
Usually, these patches appear near the darkest points of the photo however sometimes they appear in the upper section of the print.

Click to expand...

Am I correct in reading this as "areas which should be dark are brighter than they should" ? If yes, this pretty much excludes light leaks or anything like this. It does not exclude insufficient coverage of paper in process chemistry, and it does not exclude that some chemical may have gotten onto your paper before you put it into the drum. I have seen very bright spots on photographic paper which came in contact with fixer before development.
Are you 100% sure that these patches are not already present in your film? Visual inspection may not tell much, since negative film is low in contrast, but a scan would show them for sure. Are the patches in the same spot every time you enlarge the same negative?

zehner21 said:

Chemistry has been mixed two days ago, using 10/2014 concentrates stored inside a frige. Paper is from 12/2014, also stored in a fridge.
Maybe the paper is old, or the concentrates went bad?

Click to expand...

I have done my RA-4 prints with some home brew soup, which I used over and over again until it was deep red. I have seen dark blue blacks which reverted to nice blacks as soon as the paper was dry, and that's about the worst I have seen in terms of color crossover. I had to readjust filtration for each negative, but that's quite likely due to differences in negatives. PE confirmed that contrast and characteristic curve is firmly built into the RA-4 paper, and there isn't all that much that you can screw up with developers.

So to come to my conclusion: while it's not entirely impossible that your aged paper and chemistry caused this, I would exclude all other sources of error beforehand.

PS: one thing I always did in order to make my BLIX last longer: I mixed up Agfa 304 and used this as a stop/fix bath. There is a chance that going directly from CD to BLIX can cause bad effects. If you want to make sure that this isn't your problem, try using an acetic acid based stop bath and a few water changes between CD and BLIX.

zehner21 said:

I also thought about overdeveloping. Is this possible? I do a fully minute of developing/blixing and THEN I pour out the solutions. Unexposed edges are solid black, but I see a cyan/blue halo near them; this halo softens a lot when looked with a strong light. (it seems to disappear)

Click to expand...

This is RA-4, yes? Why are your edges black and not white????

Can I ask what chemicals you are using to develop the paper. I ask this because I use Kodak C41 Ektacolor and when I mix solution A and B together there is very little colour change. When I add solution C the colour changes to green almost immediately then after a couple of minutes fades to a very pale yellow. On the Kodak instructions the water into which you pour each solution should be warm and I try to keep mine around 35c. The green colour doesn't fade so quickly with cooler water.

Having said that. I fell foul of contaminated mixing vessels and did get a blue colour in the developer which did not fade. It was bad and went totally black within 24 hours. The plastic beakers had retained chemicals from other processes, both B&W and colour and this was enough to contaminate the next solution I mixed. To get around that problem, I now use only glass graduated measures obtainable from specialised laboratory suppliers and they are not that expensive.

Good concentrated solutions when mixed will keep for many months and even when part used and replenished at a rate of 80 cc per each 10x8 inch print or pro rata. In the past have mixed a fresh batch and still been using them with replenishment 8 months later. I only change the main developer bath when it become too dark to see through.

There is only one of the three chemical solutions will go off quickly and if I remember corrrectly with the Kodak Ektacolor it is solution 'C'. Mixing the Blix it does not matter if there is slight contamination so just washing them out will suffice.

Yes it is possible to over develop paper but it is not easy, 45 seconds at 35C is the optimum and keeping the temperatures are maintained as close as possible, constant.. If you are using a drum to process the paper in my opinion you are making things difficult for yourself. After every print it HAS to be washed out and then dried or you will get problems like colour shifts. If you can find and buy a deeptank such as a NOVA life becomes so much easier.

Rudeofus said:

Am I correct in reading this as "areas which should be dark are brighter than they should" ? If yes, this pretty much excludes light leaks or anything like this. It does not exclude insufficient coverage of paper in process chemistry, and it does not exclude that some chemical may have gotten onto your paper before you put it into the drum. I have seen very bright spots on photographic paper which came in contact with fixer before development.
Are you 100% sure that these patches are not already present in your film? Visual inspection may not tell much, since negative film is low in contrast, but a scan would show them for sure. Are the patches in the same spot every time you enlarge the same negative?

Not exactly. I had some streaks when paper got wet or got in contact with other chemicals before being developed but it's not the case. What I am having are some weak blue/purple patches, that appears either randomly or along one side of the photo.
The negative is perfect, for has been developed by a minilab machine and has been scanned month ago, so I'm pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with the negative's development.

I think that I'm using an incorrect amount of chemical. The minimum requirement for the drum I am using is 160ml, but Jobo's measuring jugs have some great degree of uncertainty/error.
One of the things I'll do is to measure how much liquid can be contained inside the cup before pouring out.

I have done my RA-4 prints with some home brew soup, which I used over and over again until it was deep red. I have seen dark blue blacks which reverted to nice blacks as soon as the paper was dry, and that's about the worst I have seen in terms of color crossover. I had to readjust filtration for each negative, but that's quite likely due to differences in negatives. PE confirmed that contrast and characteristic curve is firmly built into the RA-4 paper, and there isn't all that much that you can screw up with developers.

So to come to my conclusion: while it's not entirely impossible that your aged paper and chemistry caused this, I would exclude all other sources of error beforehand.

The fact is, that I had to change filtration for each frame I wanted to print. This is not normal, and please note that I'm using a common Kodak negative film.
PS: one thing I always did in order to make my BLIX last longer: I mixed up Agfa 304 and used this as a stop/fix bath. There is a chance that going directly from CD to BLIX can cause bad effects. If you want to make sure that this isn't your problem, try using an acetic acid based stop bath and a few water changes between CD and BLIX.

I'll try the acetic acid based stop bath.
This is RA-4, yes? Why are your edges black and not white????

Click to expand...

Sorry, my bad. The unexposed edges --> part of the photo paper that received "light" but was outside the projection's area.

BMbikerider said:

Can I ask what chemicals you are using to develop the paper. I ask this because I use Kodak C41 Ektacolor and when I mix solution A and B together there is very little colour change. When I add solution C the colour changes to green almost immediately then after a couple of minutes fades to a very pale yellow. On the Kodak instructions the water into which you pour each solution should be warm and I try to keep mine around 35c. The green colour doesn't fade so quickly with cooler water.

I'm using RA/RT chemicals but I have not found any advices about the water temperature.

Having said that. I fell foul of contaminated mixing vessels and did get a blue colour in the developer which did not fade.
Fortunately, this is not happening to me. The stored developer is of a pale yellow in colour.

Yes it is possible to over develop paper but it is not easy, 45 seconds at 35C is the optimum and keeping the temperatures are maintained as close as possible, constant.. If you are using a drum to process the paper in my opinion you are making things difficult for yourself. After every print it HAS to be washed out and then dried or you will get problems like colour shifts. If you can find and buy a deeptank such as a NOVA life becomes so much easier.

Click to expand...

I decided to get a Jobo mainly because I could not afford a Nova processor. Before this, I used a Cibachrome drum and it wasn't a big deal except for the broken cap (grr...).

So, in the end, things to do:

1) Determining how much liquid can be stored "inside the cup" of the Jobo drum.
2) Using more than 160ml of chemistry
3) Adding a stop bath
4) Adjusting the development time.
5) Using new paper

About the number four: in the j39 publication by kodak, it is stated that 45 second of development are required with a drum processor (minus 1 second and plus 5 seconds).
However it is also stated that all the given times are comprehensive of 10 second of draining.
What does it mean?
45s+10s or 45~-10s?
Thanks!



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I’m sort of guessing here, but I think it may be possible that your chemistry is suffering from being kept in a refrigerator.

Keeping your liquid chemistry at or around 4ºC with temperature swings between 1.5ºC through to 5.5ºC, is, as I understand it, not a great idea.

My experience with RA4 printing, is that the colour developer is off (usually exhausted) when you get blue blacks. You can see in certain lighting that the blacks are not really blue. This is noticeable in the middle picture you supplied in the dark hair of your subject showing up with blueish hair.

It may be something else entirely, but I have a hunch you may have done some damage to your chemicals by lowering their temperature to that degree. I keep my developers in darkened glass containers in my darkroom, in the summertime the temperature can get to around 35-40ºC sometimes, and in winter I keep my newly mixed (and used) chemistry in the house where the ambient hovers around 18-23ºC.

With regard to your processing time, whatever you decide upon, stick to it. RA4 does have some strict processing times for absolute best imagery and colour fidelity, but you can deviate a bit and still have really excellent pictures.

Your time of 45 seconds development would be like this for me. I would add the developer into the cup, then when I invert the drum and place it on the Jobo, I would start the timer. When 35 seconds have passed, I would remove the drum and start pouring out the developer so that when 45 seconds have elapsed, you then either pour the Blix in, or pour a stop bath in.

Mick.

I myself when using my Jobo processor doing RA4 prints, I used a 2% stop bath. This stopped paper development instantly. I then emptied the stop bath, out, gave a quick rinse with water, then poured in the Blix. By using a stop bath, you will stop developer carry over into your Blix, thereby keeping your Blix chemicals working longer and stronger.

A stop bath is not a requirement, but with rotary processing, or in fact any kind of drum processing, it can make life easier.

With conventional paper processors, as the paper goes from the paper developer into the Blix, it passes between two rollers that are quite soft and are effectively a squeegee and squeeze most of the developer chemicals from the paper. This keeps the Blix working reasonably well.

If my memory is correct, RA4 Blix has close to twice the capacity of RA4 colour developer. Meaning, one litre of colour developer can develop say, 1 square metre of paper, before it requires replenishing (or replacing) 1 litre of Blix should be able to develop 2 square metres of paper.

In a machine environment, 1 litre of RA4 developer can do 1 square metre of paper, and as there is a small carry over of colour developer, the Blix can very safely do 1 square metre of paper with 1 litre of chemistry. It will not do double as there is a slight carry over of colour developer even though the paper is squeegeed. A stop bath eliminates the problem, but very few paper processors have this feature.

The 1 litre of chemistry doing 1 square metre of paper, is only for illustrating my idea in a way that I hope you understand. It is not necessarily actual chemistry developing data, just a way of showing you how it works.

I have in the past done many RA4 prints with my own Jobo processor very successfully. Then I purchased a new Durst Printo paper developer for my RA4 colour prints. I do not process colour prints these days, but still use the Printo paper processor to develop B&W prints, which it does very well.

Excellent news. Chemistry and paper are ok.
I doubled the amount of chemistry and everything worked perfectly.
I had only to slightly adjust the filtration because, before the Jobo, I used to print photos using a Cibachrome drum and 2' of development time.
Thank to all of you. I won't keep the concentrates in the fridge anymore.

I have a feeling that, if the chemistry was diluted, you would have gotten excellent results with a longer dev time or hotter solutions. When underdeveloped, blacks are only dark bluish. - David Lyga