help me reinvent a darkroom!

Since getting a house with my wife, I've had great difficulty finding a place to do any developing or printing. I'd turned a bathroom into a darkroom last year when I was in Boston and she in NC, so I could make my bathroom as much of a hole as I wanted. But I can't do that now.

The house is very big, and I have a section of the basement I can ultimately use as a darkroom -- but it will probably cost a few thousand dollars to install plumbing in there, as there is no sink and all drains in the basement need to be hooked up to a pump. So it's not as simple as routing input and drainage to a darkroom sink.

We have a utility sink in our laundry room. But I can't really justify using that to wash film / prints or use chemicals, seeing as we wash / change our 3 week old baby in there.

So what should I do?! I can't even find a local darkroom that I can use (I live in Greensboro, NC).

I am in a very similar situation right now, plus I am disabled so have to be mindful of a lot of other access-related stuff. Instead of installing plumbing, I am simply going to use trays or a Nova-style processor, and wash prints in the laundry room in a dedicated print washer (these are cheap used these days). I am not sure how this is going to work, but that's the plan at the moment. I will be curious to see what others have done in a similar situation.

aprat

The plumbing will be the most expensive part no matter what. To run water to my darkroom, which is in my garage, cost over $3000. Ridiculous.

The sheet rock is cheap and I bought cabinets at the local Lowes. Then I used 3/4" plywood for the counter top. Cheap.

You don't even have a floor drain in the basement? That's suprising, even my 1920s era house has a floor drain. Don't see why you need a drain though. Just make sure you have a bucket or something to carry unneeded liquids upstairs to a drain. Wash prints and film upstairs. Get one of those big thermos containers- that works as a source of running water for diluting developers etc...

Hard to invision without a floorplan of your basement, but is there room for a second sink next to the existing one to be used exclusively for photo chems? You can get them relatively cheaply at Lowes, etc. and stand it next to the existing one and tie into the same drain which shouldn't be too difficult.

For prints up to 11x14 I don't think it would be too hard to set up a temporary waterless station in a spare room and do your washing with a print washer in the bathroom... like some kind of big gardening tray to hold your 11x14 trays, or 11x14 trays with chemistry (and one with water to hold prints temporarily before the final wash) nested in 16x20 trays (to keep spills and drips from contaminating your room). You could use a funnel to transfer your chemical trays back to brown bottles when done, then cart all the trays off to the bathroom to rinse them in the tub.

I'm going to be in a similar situation soon, and if I don't have any plumbing I plan to use a spare room as a darkroom for printing and tray development, and do all my washing in the bathroom. I also have a big print drum - you might be able to use that. Do your enlarging in a darkened room or whatever, put your paper (or test strips) into an appropriately sized drum, and go process in the bathtub. I've got a couple of 8x10 drums and a massive JOBO 30XX 16x20 print drum that I'm going to use if necessary. One way or the other, I will print!

Otherwise, just get one of those baby tubs that you can fill with water from a tap, and start using your laundry room.

I think of all the options, processing prints in light-proof drums outside of your enlarger area is probably the easiest to implement.

DrPablo said:

Since getting a house with my wife, I've had great difficulty finding a place to do any developing or printing. I'd turned a bathroom into a darkroom last year when I was in Boston and she in NC, so I could make my bathroom as much of a hole as I wanted. But I can't do that now.

The house is very big, and I have a section of the basement I can ultimately use as a darkroom -- but it will probably cost a few thousand dollars to install plumbing in there, as there is no sink and all drains in the basement need to be hooked up to a pump. So it's not as simple as routing input and drainage to a darkroom sink.

We have a utility sink in our laundry room. But I can't really justify using that to wash film / prints or use chemicals, seeing as we wash / change our 3 week old baby in there.

So what should I do?! I can't even find a local darkroom that I can use (I live in Greensboro, NC).

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My darkroom uses a "Lil Giant" "up pump". It was plumber installed, but after a couple of years it broke because I used very hot water too often and for too long. (The plumber hadn't left any of the literature that came with the pump, so I didn't know I shouldn't do that. It used a diaphragm that worked on the compressed air pressure that increased as water filled the space between the tank and the diaphragm that triggered the pump motor. I think the hot water so weakened the diaphragm that it gave out prematurely. Other designs use floats like those used in a toilet.) I replaced it myself to save a small fortune that the plumber would have charged, and I discovered he hadn't actually installed the backflow valve in the right place, and used a rather low grade valve at that. It's a very doable task if you undertake it yourself, and if not, it's worth it to have it done...correctly, and keep the instructions!

Nonetheless, I highly recommend using such a device. You're going to be in your house for a long time I suspect. Make the best darkroom you can...including running water...and you'll be grateful for having done so.

BTW, congratulations on your marriage! (I assume it's a recent thing?)

Hoses and pumps ...

Hi all,

I had a similar problem here in a rented house.
*My* solution: a pressure-resistant hose from next water tap into the darkroom (small holes to drill ...) brings fresh water in. My darkroom sinks are connected to a barrel (the kind of plastic barrel used by garden freaks to collect rain water here in germany) and inside this barrel is simple garden pump witch switches on if a certain water level is reached. OK, I don't had to drill trough the floor, but it works. Costs are well below 300 euros.

I installed this after consulting a plumbing company (?) for a cost estimation - it was my decision that my darkroom should simply work and there is no need for a design that survives world war III.

Maybe that gives you some ideas for your situation.

regards,

JP

Thanks for the suggestions,

If we weren't using the laundry room to care for the baby, I could probably use that sink. But it's the only utility sink in the house. We have four full baths and three half baths plus the kitchen sink and laundry room sink distributed over three levels. But the bathrooms are all nice and finished, and I don't want to deal with chemical smells or stains in the bathrooms (well, I don't mind, but my wife would). I obviously can't use the kitchen for this stuff. And we're washing the baby in the utility sink, which is in the laundry room where we change him (and we need to change him in the laundry room because he loves to just relax the bowel in front of a 20 atmosphere pressure-head as soon as his diaper comes off).

There is no room for an additional sink in the laundry room. The basement is half-finished, half not. The unfinished part has two storage rooms and then a smaller room with the furnace, water heater, and water pump; this is incidentally where I keep all my photography stuff anyway, and what I'd like to be a darkroom. There are exposed pipes in that room, some of which are probably drainage and some are water. So accessing the pipes and the pump don't seem to be a problem.

If there is a floor drain I'm not sure where it is. All water in the basement has to go through the pump, which is activated by even a trickle from one of the bathroom sinks down there.

As for print washing, Walter, we're in a bit of a drought here and that's another problem. I'd probably need to use long water baths, changing every hour or so, to minimize water use. I think a print washer would use too much water.

I don't know of any public darkrooms in town. I am taking a faculty position at Duke Medical School starting this summer, and the hospital / med school are on the main campus. They do have a darkroom in their art department, and maybe I'll just use that when I have free time (I'll have a general faculty appointment at the university).

jovo said:

BTW, congratulations on your marriage! (I assume it's a recent thing?)

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3 1/2 years, but thanks We've been living in different places because of our medical residencies and fellowships, which have been on different schedules and in different places. But we have a 19-day old newborn now, so this whole "family" thing is actually happening!

Another vote for the separate wash. I setup my darkroom in my garage. I setup the print chemestry there and I have a larger tub with water that I keep the prints in temporarily. After I do 5-10 prints I move them into the kitchen where I do the final wash in the sink. It helps to have a small heater or cooler in your darkroom to keep the temperature stable.

My previous darkroom (in MA) was in the basement with no floor drain. There weren't any sinks or anything in the basement, so it was stating from scratch, too. To run the pipes across the basement to the darkroom, install a pump and the drain pipe cost $1200. I recently found the receipt or I wouldn't remember. I bought my own sink and water board, so the bill covered the pump, the pipe, and the labor. Granted, that was about 5 years ago, but I doubt prices have gone up too much since then. You didn't say if you're still in MA, but my old house will likely be on the market sometime soon if someone wants a house with a darkroom.

DrPablo said:

As for print washing, Walter, we're in a bit of a drought here and that's another problem. I'd probably need to use long water baths, changing every hour or so, to minimize water use. I think a print washer would use too much water.

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Heh, if you don't have water for your darkroom activities, you're kind of screwed.

In that case you probably don't have any choice but to print using other methods. If I was completely deprived of a darkroom I'd seriously look into carbon pigment inks for inkjet - they give unbelievably deep blacks and when I visited some in a gallery (made by Jim Kitchen, a local 8x10 photographer) I thought I was looking at real darkroom work or carbon transfer prints. But that's not a topic for this forum

But if you do get water restrictions lifted I think drums are the way to go unless you want to just suck it up and build a proper room. You can make your own sink; PVC sheets can be used, or I know of a guy who just coated a home-built wooden sink with a few billion hand-painted varnish layers (not sure what type of varnish or coating) until it was perfectly water & chemical proof.

I'm sure you could find a way to plumb it in yourself; it's not like it's particularly complicated to run a couple of water lines to your sink. There's got to be a way to interface with your existing drain system.

Bite the bullet and do it right. It will cost several thousand dollars (or a bunch of hours if you do it yourself), but it will be an absolute pleasure to use. I used a small walk in closet for a few years with no water and enough room for 3 8x10 trays. It worked fine, but it wasn't exactly the "retreat form the world" I wanted.

One other suggestion.....it is much easier to give the baby a bath in the kitchen sink since you don't have to bend over as far. My daughter did that until she didn't fit anymore! Of course that clears the way for you to use the utility sink!

Since there is no room for a second sink, I'm inclined to agree with Mark. The plumbing is not a hard job, copper for the pressurized side and PVC for the waste. Can't quite invision the issue of not having gravity for the waste, but I'm sure tying into whatever you have shouldn't be too hard.I'm no plumber and I replaced all the old galvanized with sweated copper years ago and recently got rid of the old double concrete wash tub and replumbed for a newer, smaller sink in our laundry area. The hardest part was breaking up the old sink and hauling it out. Where there is a will, there's a way.

Congratulations on the baby.

Sounds as if you just took on some massive debt so why not pile on and do a proper darkroom? Besides, you will never be more reckless with money than you are right now (ignoring the first trip to Disney World).

A plumber should be worth his money in your case to deal with hooking the drain to the water pump. Get low-flow Hass intellifaucet. For low water consumption try to find a used Summitek washer. A poorly designed sink is a curse. Get a big one, e.g. 12 feet by 30 inches deep. A restaurant supply company could make a shallow sink relatively cheaply in stainless. (I wish I had done that part). A lower sink for a print washer would be nice so it is not too high when inserting prints. Use dust-friendly materials (not plywood) and use gloss paint on the walls so they are easy to wipe down. Use lab style style bibs for tempered water outlets to which you can attach vinyl tubing and quick disconnects. I am sure that if you want alot of details people will chime in with all of their unique preferences.

Of course, studying the darkroom portraits thread will reveal a myriad of ideas that will suit your preferences.

DrPablo said:

As for print washing ... I'd probably need to use long water baths, changing every hour or so, to minimize water use.

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Changing every minute or two is plenty. Too long in water is said to cause problems. The trick is to completely change the water a few times and agitate while the print diffuses out the hypo. Use of Hypo Clear or Permawash etc is mandatory. Peace of mind can be obtained by testing for residual hypo.

It doesn't take many changes to get rid of all the hypo needed. I used to use ten changes.

Kodak Hypo Test HT-2 Residual Hypo Test

Distilled Water . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
28% Acetic Acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125 ml
Silver Nitrate, Crystals . . . . . . . . . . . . 7.5 g
Distilled Water to Make . . . . . . . . . . . 1 L

silver nitrate takes about24 hours to dissolve.

Store in a tightly sealed dark brown glass bottle away from light.

This solution stains everything.

For paper, place one drop on the border of the print, wait 2 minutes, then rinse with water.

If the print is thoroughly washed the solution will produce only a very faint tea-colored stain, or no stain at all. If it is poorly washed, the solution will produce a dark tea-color stain. To judge the stains you might be able to find a Kodak® Hypo Estimator. It's a series of color patches that match stain color to hypo content.

Congrats on the baby. For the first couple of years time and energy will be a bigger problem than space for darkroom work, I've found. Melchi is 16 months old now, and I can barely keep up with my film processing, let alone printing, but part of that has been due to moving and having to figure out the darkroom in a new space, and the prospect of moving again in a few months, which will no doubt increase the size of the darkroom backlog.

In your situation, I'd start with a waterless darkroom in the basement and carry water from upstairs until you can do the plumbing.

For film and print washing, Permawash and the Ilford wash sequence or the 7-tray system (which can be done with seven changes or so of water in one tray, but it's not quite so miserly as seven trays) that Ansel Adams describes in _The Print_ are effective methods of both washing and conserving water.

David A. Goldfarb said:

In your situation, I'd start with a waterless darkroom in the basement and carry water from upstairs until you can do the plumbing.

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Thats more or less what I started with. I put in a sink with a large bucket under the waste and just plumbed in the cold tap. You can do this yourself even if you think you can't!

Whenever anyone asks me for plumbing advice and they are not sure if they can do it I ask "what's the worst thing that can happen?". The answer is that you might get wet.

Start with this, add the hot supply later and then think about the waste. Follow my personal rule on refusing to pay someone else to do something that I can do myself.


Steve.

Another Vote for DIY

david b said:

The plumbing will be the most expensive part no matter what. To run water to my darkroom, which is in my garage, cost over $3000. Ridiculous.

The sheet rock is cheap and I bought cabinets at the local Lowes. Then I used 3/4" plywood for the counter top. Cheap.

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Never let plumbing scare you. It has always amazed me how much people have paid for what is relatively simple plumbing. Living in the country where I do, has forced me to become very resourceful, with pumps to maintain, and a local shortage of plumbers.

As long as you are quite comfortable with the use of a propane torch and copper pipe, you will have no problem with running in hot and cold water.

These can be teed off existing hot and cold water lines. First, locate a nearby hot and cold water pipe. Dry fit the run to where you want the new sink to be. Then disassemble the run, and using sandpaper, clean the ends of each run of pipe and the inside of each fitting till it shines. Apply acid core flux to the ends of each fitting (tees, elbows, unions, etc. and to the runs of pipe itself. Pay particular attention to the pipes you tee into for the water. You need to completely drain all water from that pipe and clean it meticulously, otherwise you will have difficulty heating it enough to get a reliable joint.

Make sure you install shut-offs on the new run so you can isolate the run in case of leaks. These can be installed at the end of the new run, but perhaps are better installed where you tee of the existing pipe, as the complete run may be isolated. Of course, you can also install shut-offs below the new sink and at the beginning of the new run. This is the best option.

Then work your way back to the destination, heating each joint, then applying solder and contiinue heating until it sweats into the fitting. Sweating is when the solder flows back into the fitting - the point where you can consider the connection good. Wipe the connection with a rag immediately after soldering to remove excess solder and flux. This will prevent future corrosion at the joint.

Drain plumbing can be a bit more difficult, especially in the situation you are in. Options include: (a) Running the drain to an existing grey water pump or a sump pit. (b) Installing a new grey water pump and reservoir such as a Sanishower (see link below), and then up to an existing waste water drain. These can be purchased for 2-3 hundred dollars. There are a number of brands available - some are intended for basement bathroom installation, and include a small tank and pump using a float system to pump water up to the drains when a preset level of water exists in the tank. ABS drain plumbing isn't difficult. Again, it is a matter of dry fitting your run, ensuring that each run has a slight angle downwards so that water doesn't remain in the pipe, then cleaning the cut ends and fittings, then using abs cement on each pipe end and fitting. Locate your pump close to the drain, and you won't need to vent the run.

I do recommend aganst running your drain into a regular basement floor drain. Depending upon your areas plumbing codes, these may go to a municipal waste drain, but often only tie into your weeping tile, and/or storm drain only, which would leach trace chemicals in the drain water into the soil surrounding your house. In most jurisdictions, this would be illegal.

Hardware stores such as Lowes, Home Hardware, Home Depot and others can be an excellent source for not only items needed for your installation and for advice not only for what you need, but also for how to do it. There are also a number of internet sites which deal with plumbing basics.

Don't let plumbing intimidate you! Things should go better than you expect, and the experience will leave you better prepared for the next plumbing emergency, especially if it occurs on a weekend or holiday.

One resource of many you will find on the Internet is:
http://www.diyplumbingguide.com/

A good source of grey water pumps is:
http://www.saniflo.ca/?gclid=CP2hq4nZ-JICFRFBFQodtkqUGw

Dave

DavePEI said:

..You need to completely drain all water from that pipe and clean it meticulously, otherwise you will have difficulty heating it enough to get a reliable joint.
Dave

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Couldn't agree more about the relative ease. One problem I ran into regarding draining the existing plumbing is, our house is fairly old, 65 yrs. So we have quite a few of the old gate valves. There is a reason new plumbing includes better ball valves. The older gate valves may not "stop" 100% of the flow, as noted, critical to sweating good joints. I found I needed to completely unscrew and remove one gate valve upstream. In my case, it was positioned overhead and upside down. This allowed the few drops still flowing to exit the system ahead of the new work. This could be done with any valve ahead of where you are working if necessary, just need to put a bucket under it to catch the drips. If you plan to include valves, use ball valves and make sure you remove the core before sweating and then reinstall.

Several years ago Vestal did an article "Mysteries of the Vortex" and determined that, dependent on your water, the water bath method is by far the most economical, Including up to an overnight soak.

I'm intimidated enough by plumbing that I won't do anything myself other than replace the flapper valve on a toilet. I'm sure it's within my capacity to learn and do these things. But it's not in my capacity to convince my wife I can do it, nor confront her when I've accidentally flooded the basement.

I think David is right that time is going to be the biggest issue with the newborn. I'm lucky if I get 30 minutes of free time these days. If I have access to the Duke darkroom I may end up going there to print every few weeks when I have a light day. I can probably do most of my alt process stuff at home on my own -- I've got blacklights, a contact printer, and in NC we get much more intense sun than in Boston so it's easy to do that outside.

Unfortunately lith printing is my biggest passion right now, and that one is impossible to do without a good darkroom setup and time.

Jesus H Christ, $3000 to get water into a Darkroom . . . . .

I'm on my way to do the plumbing, $300 parts at a maximum, so $2700 profit. That's at UK prices which are far higher than the Dollar !!!!!

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Jesus H Christ, $3000 to get water into a Darkroom.

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That's what I thought. I can usually do it free with left over parts!


Steve.

bobwysiwyg said:

Couldn't agree more about the relative ease. One problem I ran into regarding draining the existing plumbing is, our house is fairly old, 65 yrs. So we have quite a few of the old gate valves. There is a reason new plumbing includes better ball valves. The older gate valves may not "stop" 100% of the flow, as noted, critical to sweating good joints.

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In the UK, the convention was that gate valves were used for gravity fed water i.e from the tank in the roof and 'proper' stopcocks were used for mains pressure water.

The gate valve has now been replaced with isolating valves which I think are the same as the ball valves you are referring to. The difference is ours are usually supplied with compression fittings rather than solder.

If I am confronted with a pipe to join onto which I cannot totally clear of water (causing soldering problems) I will use a compression fitting in that position. If it makes sense to put an isolator there then that's what I use.

I am now not a great fan of push fit fittings and flexible plastic pipe after a fitting in my roofspace (the only one in the house) let go of the pipe and poured several gallons of mains pressure water through the ceiling! The plastic pipe and push fit system is now used in almost all UK new builds and I can see many problems with it in the future.


Steve