Help me identify and rectify this staining of FB paper

Dusty Negative

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I'm close to pounding my noggin against my darkroom wall (thankfully drywall, by the way).

I have frequently been getting this staining around the edges of my Ilford Art 300 paper. It seems to only ever be Art 300, not any other FB or RC paper, though in truth I only enlarge a few times a month so as they say, "give it time."

I *generally* use fresh chemistry when I hit the darkroom. Not because I'm a purist, but rather because I figure the leftover from the last session is probably spent given the infrequency with which I'm in there.

This particular staining, today, showed up just after fixing, even though the fixer had only seen one other 11x14 print and two very small test strips.

Chemistry:

1. Fairly fresh (see above) Sprint paper developer
2. Same age Sprint Stop
3. Same age Sprint Fixer (1:4)
4. Print was in the Fix for 30 seconds, then 15 second drip, then into water wash.

I usually use tap water for all my chemistry, but this time I used distilled for the Fixer. Still didn't seem to rectify the issue.

For the following print after this one, I mixed up fresh Developer, Stop, and Fixer, and saw no staining.

So...is it something in my water, my workflow, the paper, or??? Changing all chemistry every other print seems a bit extreme, even for Art 300.

Here's the staining I'm talking about...I tweaked the contrast so it would show up more. This staining was *only* around the edges, and it was/was around the entire perimeter of the sheet. Thoughts?

 

Vaughn

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Possibility:

Incomplete fix, no clearing bath and perhaps insufficient wash for this particular paper...thicker, softer, more absorbent paper base.

Fix is entering the edges of the paper more than elsewhere due to the cut edges and you are experiencing the fix not washing out from the higher concentration of fix around the edges.
 
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Dusty Negative

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So, the stains are appearing *immediately* after I remove from fixing bath (of course, they're probably there *in* the bath but that's hard to see) so ... would you think I could actually wash those stains out with enough wash, or are they there to stay? I assume the latter, and, ergo, 1:4 (at least with the stronger Sprint Fixer) may just be too much for this paper. As you say...this is likely a softer, more absorbent base.

If so, though, then I am doubly confused, as folks speak of 1:4 as a better method of fixing because you're not leaving the paper in the weaker 1:9 bath as long, thereby (if I understand correctly) preventing exactly the problem I seem to be seeing.

Confusion....
 

Don_ih

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Are you using tongs? The rubber on tong tips (if you're using them) could be a source of contamination.
 

MattKing

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Ilford Art 300 has one characteristic that makes handling it different -- it stubbornly insists on floating on top of the fluid in the tray.
Perhaps you are seeing the result of that.
Be absolutely sure that the print is fully immersed and well agitated in the stop bath, and that the stop bath has enough time to do its full work.
 
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Dusty Negative

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Don Heisz said:
Are you using tongs? The rubber on tong tips (if you're using them) could be a source of contamination.
Click to expand...

I am using tongs, but I clean them regularly (during a printing session) and these stains are all nearly uniformly around the perimeter of the print where I am not using the tongs.

Additional washing does not seem to have an impact on these stains. As Matt indicates, I'm thinking it may be that I'm not giving the print enough time in the stop bath.

I need to go back to the drawing board and take more meticulous notes, particularly since this doesn't happen with regularity.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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A 30 second fix for fiber base paper is much too short.

Use two fixing baths, 2 minutes in each bath with agitation with the print face down. Then to a holding water bath where you can queue prints. Then hypo clear for 5 minutes, then a 30 minute wash in a good print washer.
 
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Dusty Negative

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You may very well be right, but Sprint's suggested time is 30 seconds at 1:4, while Ilford's is 60 seconds. From previous residual hypo testing of this paper, I've found that 60-120 seconds at 1:4 still leaves traces of fixer (tan/yellow stain) even after hypo clear and a 30-minute wash.
 
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Dusty Negative

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Pieter12 said:
I wonder if you could bleach the edges?
Click to expand...

I don't know...never ventured into that arena. Bleaching is on my list of things to figure out (I'm slowing that list down, for sure, until I can consistently get non-stained Art 300 prints!!!) I hope I have another 50 years of life to figure this stuff out!
 

Patrick Robert James

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As an educated guess, I would say your fix time is way too short. Don't obsess over short fix times. I use Ilford Hypam 1:9 and usually leave the print in the fix until the next print. That can be five minutes or even more. Just use a hypo clearing agent, or do what I do, use sulfite. I actually leave my prints in a sulfite bath right after fixing then wash them later. As long as you clear the prints then give them enough wash time you should be fine. I do a lot of toning which is very intolerant of any contamination and I never have any issues. That all said, I don't use that paper so maybe it is different.

Hope that helps.
 
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Dusty Negative

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...but for my own edification, would under-fixing cause stains like that? What would be the chemical reason why under-fixing would do that in so short a time (essentially immediately)? I've been assuming that, if anything, I am over-fixing, but maybe my assumption is wrong.

If, as Matt says, I'm not completely stopping the developer, then, perhaps the under-fixing is not washing away the remnants of silver+developer and, when viewed in UV light, the remaining developer is darkening the remaining halides? But why just the edges?
 

Vaughn

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Those were my best guesses...easy to try out. But the pattern of staining suggests some kind of infiltration from the cut edges of the paper, with more in the corners due to having two cut edges. I can't figure out why they are dark stains.

But it is difficult to say what it is. Best of luck! Print with bigger borders and trim the stain off?
 

NB23

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Bad stop. Stop for longer and use super fresh stop for this paper.

What you are seeing is developer interacting with fixer.

I have used at least 500 sheets of ilford art 300 this past year, and I have run into this problem which was mind boggling. It is the stop bath.
 
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NB23

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This paper will always leave residual hypo stain. I tried everything.
 
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Dusty Negative

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Wow. Ok, as Vaughn and some others have suggested, this will be easy to try out. I’ll extend the stop time first and see if that rectifies the issue.

Thank you, and sorry to hear you’ve seen this, too. It is really perplexing!
 

gone

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30 seconds sounds right at 1:4, assuming you're using a fresh batch of rapid fixer, but I give the Ilford Matte FB papers 1 minute in the rapid fix. They like to float in the wash water too. I wouldn't consider printing w/ the art papers w/o a good hypo wash to help get the fix out, but there's other viewpoints. One idea is to leave the papers in the water over night, put fresh water in the next day, empty after many hrs, etc. That sort of slow dilution may work better for your papers. The challenge will be to get the papers to sit in the water and not on top of it.
 

mshchem

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This sounds reasonable. I've seen this with the Art paper on one occasion. The emulsion is applied directly to the rag paper, no Barium coat under emulsion. Also cotton rag paper may be a bit more absorbent and slower to release residual chemicals.

Way back with Kodak COLOR fiber base papers there was a presoak. Might help to reduce developer carry over to acid stop that is what protects the fixer.

I make fresh stop every session, quite important with fiber base.
 

MattKing

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Dusty Negative said:
I’ll extend the stop time first and see if that rectifies the issue.
Click to expand...
Don't just extend the time. Be diligent about ensuring full immersion and continuous agitation.
The same applies to the time in the fixer and to the time in the developer.
The tendency of Art 300 to float means that it is very easy to run into a situation where one part of the print isn't in the chemical, it is out in the air.
 
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Dusty Negative

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Thank you for the reminder, Matt. Very good point.
 
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Dusty Negative

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Many thanks to all for your input. I’ll report back here when I can get back into the darkroom and try this out.
 

Bill Burk

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Also, keep the lights off as you fix. Though NB23 says it’s the paper, I would sometimes see this when I turn on the lights immediately in the fix.
 

David Lingham

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This issue has appeared in another forum I belong to. One conclusion was to stick to the Ilford suggested processing regime, another to avoid using a slot processor which can create problems with this paper. I have no experience of Sprint chemicals and do not know how comparable they are with the Ilford range, although that should not be an issue in itself. The problem appears to be method rather than chemical.
 

NB23

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The issue is a chemical one. It is the developer competing against the fixer.
 
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