Help me choose between a Mamiya 645 kit or a Bronica ETRs

Hello all. I'm looking to buy an MF SLR 6x4.5 system, and currently I'm trying to decide between the two above. I have handled the Mamiya 645 Pro and a Mamiya 645 1000s at my camera repairman's place, albeit for only 5 minutes or so, and I seem to like them both equally. True, the Pro is a bit plasticky, but it feels good in my hands. As for the ETRs, can't say I've really handled them, aside from a quick (10 seconds or so) grope I had with a friend's (this was back before I got interested in getting one). Some salient points:

a) Interchangeable backs are a non-issue for me, I prefer to finish the roll I have in the camera, be it B&W or color.

b) Flash sync speed is also a non-issue, as I very seldom use flash, prefer available light. I also can't imagine myself going into a studio anytime soon.

c) Availability of a WLF is important, as I'd like to choose between a prism finder or a WLF..this is why the Pentax 645 is off my list.

d) Prices is of course, very important. I'm a PhD student, and money is pretty tight. Which system in the end, has cheaper lenses & accessories?

I did ask my camera repairman, to get his opinion between a Bronica or a Mamiya, and he told me to go for the Mamiya, as it's easier to repair and to get parts (as Mamiya as a company is still around).

Recently, I have received several offers. One is for a Bronica ETRs kit, with lens & prism (but no WLF) for a reasonable $250 (well under my budget of $300), but then came along another offer for a Mamiya 645 kit..complete with 2 bodies (1000s & plain M645), 3 lenses (55mm/3.5, 80mm/2.8 and 150mm/4), a film insert, a WLF (faulty but works, won't attach correctly to the body) and an AE prism finder..all for $200 more than what I can afford to pay right now. But with time, I guess I can scrounge up enough money to get it. Honestly, I'm more partial to this kit right now, as it'll give me an almost complete M645 system.

So, considering all the points I've mentioned above, can anyone tell me why I should go for the Bronica ETRS instead of the M645? I'd appreciate any input and feedback greatly, thanks!

a) M645 1000s then.
b) prefer available light? then, M645 1000s again seems as the right choice, think of 80/1.9 lens.
c) ^&^^
d) M645 can be found cheaper.

offtopic: IMHO, a perfect 6x6 system would be M666 1000s
I dream of a camera built like M645 1000s, sharing the same line-up of lenses, especially 80/1.9, which itself was reason for me to jump into M645 deal.

I've owned a Mamiya RZ for over 20 years and it's a great camera. Mamiyas is a very well built and well engineered cameras. The optics of are excellent. Good luck!

Don

I went through the same checklist a few years ago, and I have both the Mamiya 1000s (originally with the same 3 lenses listed above) and a Bronica ETRSi. Well, my buddy has “borrowed” the Mamiya for the past couple of years, so that tells you which one I decided I liked better.

Coming from a 35mm place, I too didn’t think I wanted interchangeable backs until I had the option. There is something to be said for having the ability to easily shoot a different film because you’re now in a new situation (different day = more/less light, you don’t have your tripod handy so the Pan F+ in your camera would be difficult, etc.). The single insert design might mean you either waste a part of a roll to change films, take the shot with a less than ideal film for the situation, or worst of all, don't take the shot at all.

I also didn’t think I would want to try studio flash, until I did. The Bronica has more leaf shutter options than the Mamiya.

My 1000s has a left-handed grip/shutter release, and I never got used to it. There is a right-handed power grip/winder for the 1000s, and I’ve read that the 6x AA batteries adds quite a bit of weight. On the other hand, the right-handed thumb winder/grip for the ETRS(i) system works well for my hands.

So, just some thoughts and input, since I’ve shot both packages. Having gone the Ph.D. route myself, I get the cost issue, and Mamiya may be one the cheapest, readily available, reputable 645 SLR systems out there. It’s certainly why I bought it first.

If you are sure about your wants and desires, I think your leaning toward the Mamiya system is the right one for you.

I recently was in the same boat, got a Mamiya 645 1000s w/ 210mm lens and 55mm lens. It also came with two 120 inserts and one 220 insert, the two extras w/ light proof-looking cases, maybe I could pre-load and just slap in the cartridge already with film, but that might be unnecessarily risky for light problems. It also had the left hand grip, which I think is pretty great, both WLF and metered prism and 2 extra focusing screens. This kit was $300 on ebay.

I am actually waiting on a couple of parts to arrive to convert the grip into a steadicam grip (ball joint + weighted arm). I may be too into my own spare time. The WLF is great. I'm also deciding how to build a bellows of sorts to use an 80mm Volna Arsat 6x6 lens as a tilt+shift apparatus (I get plenty of shift room and the DoF power is amazing). I did pick up a 150mm 3.8 lens w/ a leaf shutter and an 80mm 2.8 lens from KEH and a bunch of random accessories. It accepts my rotating flash bracket from my 35mm camera, and I think will work just splendid with my Vivitar 283 flash (used mostly just for fill or long exposure tricks with a mini-softbox diffuser attachment).

I've played around with it a bunch for brainstorming some user possibilities, but haven't gotten to really put it through it's paces, as a light seal foam removing/foam replacing kit just arrived in the mail. I do have little flecks of black in there and a loose part of foam is catching on the mirror as it travels back down to its resting place, requiring the lens to be removed and a tiny bit of pressure for a second to be out of the mirror's path- I decided just to strip it all and put in fresh. Other than that, it seems like a killer setup for maybe $550 (bunch of accessories!)...

I recently picked up a Mamiya M645 with WLF, prism finder, 80mm f/2.8 and 150mm f/3.5 for $150. It was in like new shape, with the exception that the 80mm had the aperture blades stuck. I ordered a used 80mm from KEH for under $50. I've shot about 20 rolls through it so far, and I'm liking it more and more every time I use it. I can't compare to the Bronica, but the M645 definitely feels good in the hands. I originally thought I would want the motor drive for it, but with the two shutter releases, it's actually very comfortable to hold either vertical or horizontal, and the it's easy enough to wind by hand.

I cannot comapre it to ETRS but I can compare it to SQ-A - it's definitely STURDIER. solid built, tough camera. If it was to magically turn into 6x6 camera, i'd definitely kick my P6 and SQ-A out of the house. everything feels like it's in it's place, no fun, no confusion anytime. 400asa film, me prism and f/1.9 definitely makes it really useful all-around combo, from dawn to dusk.
also, compared to SQ-A, mirror slap is well dampened, I get useful shots even at 1/8s from hand.

I recently got a Bronica ETRS and so far it's been fine. I have no hands-on experience with the Mamiyas so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.

I got the Body, Metered prism, speed grip, 75mm/2.5 lens, 120 back and a bunch of expired film for $175. So far the results with my home developed B&W have been good. I shot a couple of rolls of Velvia today and I'll get those back in a week or so and see how it handles color.

With the metered prism and speed grip, it hasn't been a huge adjustment for me after using SLRs and rangefinders for years.

I have an RB67 for a while now, great camera and optics.

Jeff

I've never owned or even held a ETRS, but I did used to own a Mamiya 1000s and it was a fantastic camera. Lots of bang for the buck.

I don't know the availability of used cameras where you are, but here in the US you can put together either an ETRS or a 1000s system together for less than $300.

The ETRS/ETRSi is the core of an excellent system. In the 90's I made lots of money shooting weddings and portraits with an ETRSi system. Tons of other pros used Bronica for weddings, too, preferring to pocket their money rather than tying it up in a very expensive comparable system built around Hasselblad.

However, since Bronica is no longer in existence as a current brand, and since shoot flash is unimportant to the OP, I think the Mamiya 645 is a fine MF system.

Find a store or friend that has both. Handle them side by side. Rent is necessary so you can shoot some film. You are well into the range of personal tests now.

Enjoy the quest.

Steve

NJS said:

offtopic: IMHO, a perfect 6x6 system would be M666 1000s

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I agree with NJS.
After trying to do hand held portrait shots with the M645 1000s w/WLF (I prefer a WLF over a prism finder to reduce weight), usually unsuccessfully because it's awkward to do it w/o the prism, I wished it was a 6x6.

My go-to camera is the RB67 w/WLF because it has the revolving back but sometimes I need a lighter weight camera, thus, the M645; it's like a miniature RB (metal body camera similar in shape). No other complaints.

I'd choose the 45mm lens over the 55mm because it will do everything the 55 will do and more when you need the extra coverage, which is often (it's equivalent to the 28mm lens in 35mm format).

I have to agree that the WLF is a little awkward to use. I haven't shot any landscapes with it yet because I've been shooting those in 6x6, but I suppose it would be nice for that. For portraits or street shots, it's a pain to have to stay horizontal, and what's the point of carrying along the prism just in case when you could just use it all the time. It's not really a drawback to the camera, as much as it's a wish that this nice camera was 6x6.

Thanks very much for the helpful and informative replies, all. Sorry I'm late in replying, but here goes:

NJS: I know of the 80/1.9 lens..it's expensive! Is it true that it's the fastest medium format lens ever made? How is it's performance, from your experience? I own several 6x6 format cameras, but none of them are SLR's..although I really like 6x6, I'm also eager to try out 6x4.5. The format intrigues me, in the sense that it's almost like 35mm's aspect ratio, but not quite. And wow, 1/8 handheld?! Either that mirror is really well-braked or you must have real steady hands

mainecoonmaniac: Don, thanks! How I wish I can afford an RZ!

igantius5: Your comment is exactly what I needed..a hands-on experience from one who's handled both systems. I appreciate your input very much, thank you. I do admit that interchangeable backs do somewhat appeal to me, and I acknowledge what you said 'not really needing it until you have it' (as regards to higher flashy sync speed & interchangeable backs) as being true. Well, I really wish I have enough money to buy into both systems so I can try it out and see which one I like better, but at this point in time, I simply don't. So it's one or the other for me. Any other things on the Bronica strike you as being better compared to the Mamiya?

macheesemo: Hey, that's a real good price for the kit that you got! Congrats! Do let me know if you want to sell it I've passed up several good deals on M645 kits on ebay lately...I'm holding out for that $500 system that the guy is offering me. Your post did make me question something else...can I mount P6/Kiev 88 lenses on M645 bodies? Is there an adapter available?

DLM: Again, what a great deal you got there! Regarding the 2 shutter releases in either portrait or landscape orientation, does it come with the standard M645 body, or does it come with a grip/winder? It's a terrible shame that KEH will not ship stuff to Malaysia, although understandable. If only I can get someone to buy stuff from KEH then ship it to Malaysia for me..hmmm..

Rustedchrome: $175 for the lot? Darn it, where do you guys get your stuff?

Jeff Kubach: Ahh, the RB..yes, it seems to be a fine camera, and the format is very appealing (the so-called ideal format), but at the mo the RB is not on my wishlist..I'd like to handhold when I take photos, and man is that beast heavy!

Travis Nunn: Thanks for the input. Well, it's definitely harder to source camera equipment, especially 'niche' ones like the M645, where I am. Ebay has been my main source of gear since I started in this crazy game.

wiltw: Thanks!

Sirius Glass: Good idea..but study/work commitments have made free time to see friends a scarcity in my life recently. As for a store that has both, there are none where I am.

panastasia: Thanks for your input, recommendation on 45/2.8 is noted. Maybe I'll spring for that one instead of the 55/2.8 (which is roughly equivalent to 35mm in 35mm format?).

Another thing that comes to mind...I mentioned that the $500 kit that I've been offered comes with 2 bodies..1 a M645 1000s and the other a plain-vanilla M645..do you really think I need 2 bodies? I was thinking to make the M645 as a backup body, but now I wonder...

@altair:
I think this was taken at 1/8s:


I'm not sure if 80/1.9 is expensive, it probably is if you look for the lens itself but I've seen deals on fleaBay with 1000s, wlf, ME prism and this particular lens - going for peanuts.
I couldn't compare this lens with standard 80/2.8 but I've seen some people did and it's equally sharp, if not sharper until f/4. I've seen one guy at flickr who mounted both C & N versions on Nikon DSLR and I think N version is a tad sharper and I think you'll need a hood to get the best out of it (I'm still looking for mine...). Mine copy of C version is definitely sharp wide open and it gets better until f/8. here's a 9mp scan on Fuji Frontier, I haven't scanned it myself so I couldn't set the parameters and I did this stupid shot just to test my first roll of Ektar and see how to deal with it, but it shows performance. it was shot at 1/125s and I think my hand didn't shake that much.
the only cons with 80/1.9 is vignetting which I have no problem with since I like that dramatic spotlight effect I get sometimes from it, but you know, you might not like it. it's not strong and it really depends on situation which can severely pronounce it but it can be spotted, like here:


hope this helps.

p.s. - it's always good to have a back-up body of any particular system you prefer.

mmmm...I want that f/1.9. When I got my M645, the 80mm had it's aperture blades stuck so I ordered another one from KEH. I was really wanting the f/1.9 80mm, but couldn't justify the extra $150-200 that it costs over the f/2.8. I still really want it, though, and at some point will get it.

About shooting at such slow speeds, I've had success at that too with this camera. I'm thinking maybe it's due to it being a heavier camera that it doesn't shake as much from the mirror? Oh, and those two shutter releases, they are on the body. One is on the top of the camera, and the other is on the bottom front, kind of in the same position as on most TLRs.

It's heavier than my SQ-A or Pentacon 6 but still I find the mirror slap to be dampened better than on other two.

DLM said:

mmmm...I want that f/1.9. When I got my M645, the 80mm had it's aperture blades stuck so I ordered another one from KEH. I was really wanting the f/1.9 80mm, but couldn't justify the extra $150-200 that it costs over the f/2.8. I still really want it, though, and at some point will get it.

About shooting at such slow speeds, I've had success at that too with this camera. I'm thinking maybe it's due to it being a heavier camera that it doesn't shake as much from the mirror? Oh, and those two shutter releases, they are on the body. One is on the top of the camera, and the other is on the bottom front, kind of in the same position as on most TLRs.

Click to expand...

You have spent your life working to buy others what they needed and what they wanted, but never anything for yourself. You deserve to get something for yourself. You do not need to justify it to anyone. If you will get enjoyment from it, then buy the f/1.9 lens.

Steve

I weighed the Mamiya, Bronica and Pentax systems when I was shopping for my first medium format system. Ultimately, I went with the Mamiya largely on the strength of the better used market for lenses and accessories and... that 80mm f1.9, most fastest medium format lens ever. Was very fortunate to get my 645 Super kit starting out with an 80mm f1.9 for only about $400 USD.

While I never did handle the ETRS or Pentax systems, I've had no regrets with my Mamiya kit. The 80mm 1.9 is great fun, and I have several other lenses all of which are good, including the 55mm f2.8 and 45mm f2.8, both which I'd recommend without reservation.

I also have the WLF, but honestly never really use it. Tried a couple times, but I think the whole WLF vibe just isn't me. I prefer an eye-level finder the vast majority of the time.

Leighgion said:

I weighed the Mamiya, Bronica and Pentax systems when I was shopping for my first medium format system. Ultimately, I went with the Mamiya largely on the strength of the better used market for lenses and accessories and... that 80mm f1.9, most fastest medium format lens ever. Was very fortunate to get my 645 Super kit starting out with an 80mm f1.9 for only about $400 USD.

While I never did handle the ETRS or Pentax systems, I've had no regrets with my Mamiya kit. The 80mm 1.9 is great fun, and I have several other lenses all of which are good, including the 55mm f2.8 and 45mm f2.8, both which I'd recommend without reservation.

I also have the WLF, but honestly never really use it. Tried a couple times, but I think the whole WLF vibe just isn't me. I prefer an eye-level finder the vast majority of the time.

Click to expand...

Yea, I find the WLF to be a hassle because I shoot about half vertical and half horizontal. I love looking at a WLF over a prism, and I like who people seem to be less intimidated by it but it just doesn't work that well for a rectangular format without a rotating back

DLM said:

Yea, I find the WLF to be a hassle because I shoot about half vertical and half horizontal. I love looking at a WLF over a prism, and I like who people seem to be less intimidated by it but it just doesn't work that well for a rectangular format without a rotating back

Click to expand...

Gee this is not a problem with a Hasselblad. No hassle!

Steve

That's why I hope to go to either a 6x6 SLR or an RB67 at some point. Hassleblad is out of my league until I have the income to support it, but something like a Bronica SQ series would be doable.

uh, I avoid WLF even on 6x6 cameras. I do like it on TLRs where when I hold it at waist and look down in it I almost get to see the final image complete with borders - but then again I don't shoot with TLRs that often. I mostly annoyed because I always use the built in magnifier for precise focusin' with lens wide open which normally changes camera position from waist to eye-level. I'm a fan of matte screens with split-prism, they just work good for me.

@DLM - SQ-A was the next step for me from M645. M645 feels more solid but the SQ-A ergonimics are just as good as with M645, and lens design on Zenzanons is better making focusing a lot easier and faster, they feel like bigger AI-s Nikkors, fast focus throw and smooth action.

I have both systems. All around i like the bronica better. The mamiya is just as good but the synch speed does it for me.
The mamiya is great for lens adapting. I use 3 czj lenses on it exclusively. If i were bored i'd hack a lf lens , coke bottle or maybe a pinhole on it.