Help identifying this film developing error please!

Hi all -

I've never had this problem before, and before I continue developing any more negs I'd quite like to know what caused it as it really messes up your images. I suspect it might have something to do with condensation in a changing bag somehow as it's been very hot here in the UK the past few days, but ... who knows?!

The markings are not surface marks, but seem to be in the emulsion itself.
Chemicals used were mixed fresh and the developer (Tetenal Ultrafin) was a newly opened bottle.
The marks are across two rolls of film shot at different times (although within the same week) but of varying distribution - from none at all on a frame to the worst example (see attached photo).
The films were loaded onto Patterson reels using a canvas-style changing bag which was starting to feel a bit hot and sweaty by the time I'd finished loading the second roll (although I've never had a problem like this ever before with it).
All development processes as normal for the film (Ilford PanF) including inversions and tank-tappings to dislodge air bubbles.
Colour negatives returned from a lab taken with the same camera at the same time are fine, so it all points to something that I've done.

The image itself is full frame from a 120 roll, so 6x6.

Has anyone any experience of this kind of problem?

Many thanks! -
Alan

It is either air bubbles or droplets of some kind that have been soaked into the emulsion before development. In both cases developer has been prevented from acting in these dark spots ( dark spot on print is bright spot on negative ). Something has caused the development to be more active just around the spots as they are surrounded by brighter rings. In your case I think presoaking the film with water before development would solve the problem although this shouldn't be necessary during normal conditions.

Karl-Gustaf

K-G said:

It is either air bubbles or droplets of some kind that have been soaked into the emulsion before development. In both cases developer has been prevented from acting in these dark spots ( dark spot on print is bright spot on negative ). Something has caused the development to be more active just around the spots as they are surrounded by brighter rings. In your case I think presoaking the film with water before development would solve the problem although this shouldn't be necessary during normal conditions.

Karl-Gustaf

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Hi Karl-

Thank you for taking the time to reply.
It must be as I suspect then - condensation within the changing bag.

I'll have to wait until it cools down a bit!

Thanks -

Alan

It looks like air bells to me. A presoak with a few sharp raps of the film tank (But carefully with a plastic tank!) on a table top to dislodge the air bells should prevent this.

Don't use a cbag in hot high humidity, with 120 or 220, though I doubt that that has caused the problem here.

Must be 95% relative here sweat dripping on phone.

I'd post it off to ilford with box card.

I also don't think it has to do with the c-bag/humidity. I use a c-bag in Florida, high temps and high humidity (the whole state is a sauna), and my hands are dripping wet with sweat when I take them out of the bag. I have never seen anything like that on my negs.

I'm guessing it's air bells. After each set of agitations, I rap the tank solidly on the edge of my counter, and then (somewhat) slam it down on the counter for it's next cycle. You may need to be a bit more aggressive in your taps.

Kirks518 said:

I also don't think it has to do with the c-bag/humidity. I use a c-bag in Florida, high temps and high humidity (the whole state is a sauna), and my hands are dripping wet with sweat when I take them out of the bag. I have never seen anything like that on my negs...

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Ah.. interesting! It was the only thing I could account for that may have affected it as I've always paid particular attention to rapping the tank - not just to start with but at every inversion. I've never seen anything like this in years of developing using changing bags (but not necessarily in this heat!) so it's thrown me a bit.

Perhaps I might dare to try one more roll and see what happens!

Thanks for all the replies

-Alan

Looks like classic air bells to me, right down to the halos around the dark spots. If you have some LFN rinse aid you can put on or two drops in with the developer, or you can pre soak film in clean water for three minutes prior to developer.

Looks like air bells. Recently I hit the tank so sharply against the counter, the lid came off in my hand. Be careful!

Some films are prone to it, others are not. No idea why.

First of all, I really like that shot.

I'm w/ the group that thinks it might be air bells, but I would filter everything that goes into your tank w/ a coffee filter from now on (put some marbles or clean stones in the filter to avoid pouring issues) just in case. I started doing this as just a normal part of my protocol, and it has eliminated lots of issues. If nothing else it removes a variable, always a good thing.

Air bells: Get a thick hard rubber wood cutting block and thump the tank two to four times when you first fill each chemical and after each agitation. Do this first.

If the thumping still leaves air bells, the pre-soak the film before developing and still do the thumping.

momus said:

First of all, I really like that shot.

I'm w/ the group that thinks it might be air bells, but I would filter everything that goes into your tank w/ a coffee filter from now on (put some marbles or clean stones in the filter to avoid pouring issues) just in case. I started doing this as just a normal part of my protocol, and it has eliminated lots of issues. If nothing else it removes a variable, always a good thing.

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Thank Momus

After a growing concensus of opinion that it was air bells, I remembered something I ~did~ do which makes me feel like a bit of a bongo-brain now, but I share it with you all for the sake of resolution:

Because it has been so hot, I was having difficulty getting the developer down to 20deg (Even the cold water was running hotter than that!). So I was cooling it in a jug on the windowsill, and when it was finally just about to temperature I strangely decided that pouring it into the tank from height would cool it down sufficiently. er... so yes, it probably ended up in the tank in a bit of a froth, and the usual agitations didn't shift the bubbles.

Hands up, I'm a der-brain, but thank you all for your help, and perhaps we can add this as a lesson to others!

-Alan

AlanMiller said:

Thank Momus

After a growing concensus of opinion that it was air bells, I remembered something I ~did~ do which makes me feel like a bit of a bongo-brain now, but I share it with you all for the sake of resolution:

Because it has been so hot, I was having difficulty getting the developer down to 20deg (Even the cold water was running hotter than that!). So I was cooling it in a jug on the windowsill, and when it was finally just about to temperature I strangely decided that pouring it into the tank from height would cool it down sufficiently. er... so yes, it probably ended up in the tank in a bit of a froth, and the usual agitations didn't shift the bubbles.

Hands up, I'm a der-brain, but thank you all for your help, and perhaps we can add this as a lesson to others!

-Alan

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Thats what mistakes are for. Learn something from them and go wiser into the future.

Karl-Gustaf

Why did you cool the developer, when you could have just adjusted the development time instead?

MattKing said:

Why did you cool the developer, when you could have just adjusted the development time instead?

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I'm a simple 'Massive Dev Chart' user that likes the routine and security of 'tried & tested' - heh!
Equally, I'm not sure of the formula for adjusting development times, or whether a formula per se even exists?

-Alan

AlanMiller said:

I'm a simple 'Massive Dev Chart' user that likes the routine and security of 'tried & tested' - heh!
Equally, I'm not sure of the formula for adjusting development times, or whether a formula per se even exists?

-Alan

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Pick up a used Kodak Darkroom Dataguide - any edition, as long as it is one of the Black and White ones.

It contains a development dial.

Line up the time and temperature for one combination that works for you. You then read off the dial the other combinations of time and temperature that will give the same results.

In my experience, this works well for both Kodak and non-Kodak films (both traditional and Y-grain) and Kodak developers. I understand it works well for non-Kodak developers as well.

The wheel is based on a formula - I just find the wheel to be the easiest to use.

Xmas said:

I'd post it off to ilford with box card.

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+1
I would also ask Ilford for their opinion.

Hatchetman said:

Looks like air bells. Recently I hit the tank so sharply against the counter, the lid came off in my hand.

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All of my Paterson System 4 tanks have long had had chips out of the tank rims on the bottom. A bit enthusiatic in my younger days.

Nowadays I just rap the tank from underneath fairly hard with my fingertips about 3 - 4 times. Never seen an air bubble fault on my negs.

You guys must be using thicker water that me.

Dear Alan,

Firstly I am sorry you have had this problem, I have obviously seen the image of the negative you posted, you are obviously very welcome to return the film and have it checked out, I have also spoken to our tech service and they have also looked at it, I think its air bells....and they think its air bells, 99.99%. As an FYI to all the 'halo' is especially typical of air bells.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon R Galley said:

Dear Alan,

Firstly I am sorry you have had this problem, I have obviously seen the image of the negative you posted, you are obviously very welcome to return the film and have it checked out, I have also spoken to our tech service and they have also looked at it, I think its air bells....and they think its air bells, 99.99%. As an FYI to all the 'halo' is especially typical of air bells.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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Hi Simon,

Thank you for your concern. I've never before had a problem with Ilford film, and ultimately happy to wear the dunce's hat of user error!

-Alan

Iv'e worn it more than a few times I can assure you...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :