Help identifying an old folding camera?

Zackyist · Jan 15, 2023

I acquired an old folding camera in a box of old and forgotten cameras two years back when I started my analogue hobby. I've never been able to identify it. Back then I went on Reddit to ask about it but the analogue hobbyists there were not able to help me much. We only came to the conclusion that it's probably an amateur camera since the maximum aperture is f/8 and it could be German (meters on the focusing scale).

At the time I also thought the camera might have been cannibalised and the front lens element could be missing but after gaining some more experience with folding cameras I'm no longer sure that's the case - there are two lens elements behind the shutter so maybe the camera is only missing the nameplate after all. It has 10 aperture blades if that's any help. Here are the photos I took of the camera back then, can anyone offer any insights into what model it is or at least which manufacturer it might be from?

Kino · Jan 15, 2023

It looks complete. Many early folders had lens elements behind the shutter and none in front.

Probably 620 by the position of the ruby window on the film back.

I would guess it was made in the 1910's and of European manufacture, but does resemble some early folding Kodaks (or vice versa).

Along the same lines, there are many early plate cameras in the 9x12cm range that have no maker names on them; more or less "jobber" type cameras made for department stores and/or camera shops. From what I understand, it was not uncommon to build batches of unidentified cameras with off the shelf components in the early 1900s and sell them to distributors who didn't badge them.

nosmok · Jan 16, 2023

It's too old to be a 620 camera-- 620 dates from the 1930s, by which time most roll film folding cameras had pressure plates on the back IIRC. So it's probably 120 film camera, from 1920s or earlier. Agree with the European origin: an evilBay search for 'vintage folding 120 camera' will turn up many German-made items that look similar, from outfits like Raath, Ernemann, ICA and others.

bernard_L · Jan 16, 2023

The inside-out bumps near the top right corner of the film window (last picture) don't look too good. Might signal that the front of the camera has suffered a significant blow.

Ian Grant · Jan 16, 2023

Start with identifying the shutter, looks a bit like a Mulcro to me, but they were made by Ensign and marked (named). I think it may be a Soviet camera, I have seen those shutters before.

Ian

Donald Qualls · Jan 16, 2023

bernard_L said:
The inside-out bumps near the top right corner of the film window (last picture) don't look too good. Might signal that the front of the camera has suffered a significant blow.

I agree, those are going to interfere with film flatness and might even scratch the emulsion. It should be possible to carefully iron them out, however. Then there's the question of what part of the front standard hit there -- looks like it might have been the bright finder. There's also the crease in the bed (visible with the color change in the leather at the upper bed corner).

Overall, I'd suggest that with a meniscus achromat lens and push-pull focusing, this was never going to be any better than it had to be to make acceptable contact prints (6x9 on 120) and might be better as a shelf queen than trying to put back into service.

M-88 · Jan 16, 2023

Ian Grant said:
Start with identifying the shutter, looks a bit like a Mulcro to me, but they were made by Ensign and marked (named). I think it may be a Soviet camera, I have seen those shutters before.

Ian

I'll be extremely surprised if this camera turns out to be Soviet. Moskva/Moskva-1 was the first Soviet mass-produced medium format folding camera and that was released in 1946. Those folders that were available before then (e.g. Fotokor, EFTE/ARFO, Tourist etc.) were plate cameras with either 9x12 or 6.5x9 cm image size. So example in OP's possession is either not Soviet, or Soviet but rare as hen's teeth.

Donald Qualls · Jan 16, 2023

M-88 said:
So example in OP's possession is either not Soviet, or Soviet but rare as hen's teeth.

Rarer still, pre-Moskva Soviet cameras with Latin alphabet markings -- those early Soviet examples had Cyrillic, at least on the examples I've seen in photos. In general, Soviet cameras weren't aimed at consumers until the late 1950s, with offerings like the Smena.

This is likely an American consumer camera aimed at the "I want to look like I have a good camera but can't afford one" market. Adjustable aperture and shutter, concave-out meniscus achromat, and focusing -- but not a triplet or Tessar type lens with a full-range shutter. Lenses of f/8 or f/6.3 were common on lower end cameras as late as the 1950s, with the same model frequently sold with f/8, f/6.3, and f/4.5 lenses as the only difference between price points, sometimes f/3.5 as the top of the line.

As an example, the Vest Pocket Kodaks (127, but otherwise similar) was sold with f/11 meniscus, f/8 double meniscus (aka Periskop or Rapid Rectilinear), and f/8 or f/6.3 triplet (the latter sometimes seen in a three-speed shutter instead of the two-speed Kodak Ball Bearing Shutter seen on the other versions).

JPD · Jan 16, 2023

The shutter is either an unmarked AGC Vario, or an imitation of one. The engravings on the real Vario use to be thicker, so this example reminds me of the Soviet copy.

This is a very simple camera, and probably sold by a store chain or mail order company under it's own name. That's why there are no proud brand or manufacturer markings. Would the anti-capitalist Soviets have done that?

xya · Jan 16, 2023

It seems to be a Vario shutter or a clone indeed. I don't think the camera is that old. It has the "modern" aperture row, introduced in the 30s and common only after WW2. Look at the German Orion Kameras from Hannover and you will find a very similar style. They made cameras for other makers, maybe Agfa.

JPD · Jan 16, 2023

xya said:
It seems to be a Vario shutter or a clone indeed. I don't think the camera is that old. It has the "modern" aperture row, introduced in the 30s and common only after WW2.

But there is no pressure plate, only a brilliant finder and the body seems to be at least partially made of wood, all which say late 1910s to early 1920s.

Donald Qualls · Jan 16, 2023

JPD said:
late 1910s to early 1920s.

I have a Voigtlander Rollfilmkamera I confidently date to 1927 (the only year they made that exact model). It has no self-erecting front standard and no pressure plate, despite (based on the full-range dial-set Compur and Skopar-Anastigmat f/4.5 lens) being a higher end camera for the day. The camera in question here could easily have been made after 1930 with 1920s features as an economy measure.

Ian Grant · Jan 16, 2023

@xya, I'm not sure what you mean by the "modern" aperture row, my pre-1900 British lenses all use the modern nomenclature. Some German lenses/shutters use the same system butt different markings like f25, f18,f12, f9, f6.4, f4.5, that's my Lack Rathenow Pololyt in an Ibsor shutter, but that's the lens manufacturer's choice.

Paul Gauthier (Ibsor/Prontor/Vario etc) became a shareholder in Deckel before WW1, along with the Carl Zeiss, and Bausch & Lomb, and that's why we have the standardised shutter sizes, in Europe.

Very few European post 1900 lenses/shutters have non-standard aperture scales. I do have a couple of others also German with non-standard F stop markings, but it's purely the choice of which aperture markings are chosen, completely different to entirely different to entirely different older aperture systems.

What's odd here is the f23 marking and I have seen it before, the more I look, think, see, it's Soviet. Ulitarian.

Ian

JPD · Jan 16, 2023

Ian Grant said:
What's odd here is the f23 marking and I have seen it before, the more I look, think, see, it's Soviet. Ulitarian.

Some Soviet Fotokor cameras have Vario shutters, and some have clones (marked "GOMZ") but they have a different look. http://www.sovietcams.com/index6575.html?tmpl_into=middle&tmpl_id=129&_m_e_id=13&_menu_i_id=82

Here is a late 10s - early 20s camera with the old style Vario shutter and apertures 8 - 11 - 16 - 22 - 45, what we would see as "modern". https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-camera-vario-spezial-aplanat-1048875102

nosmok · Jan 16, 2023

Ian Grant said:
@xya, I'm not sure what you mean by the "modern" aperture row, my pre-1900 British lenses all use the modern nomenclature. Some German lenses/shutters use the same system butt different markings like f25, f18,f12, f9, f6.4, f4.5, that's my Lack Rathenow Pololyt in an Ibsor shutter, but that's the lens manufacturer's choice.

Paul Gauthier (Ibsor/Prontor/Vario etc) became a shareholder in Deckel before WW1, along with the Carl Zeiss, and Bausch & Lomb, and that's why we have the standardised shutter sizes, in Europe.

Very few European post 1900 lenses/shutters have non-standard aperture scales. I do have a couple of others also German with non-standard F stop markings, but it's purely the choice of which aperture markings are chosen, completely different to entirely different to entirely different older aperture systems.

What's odd here is the f23 marking and I have seen it before, the more I look, think, see, it's Soviet. Ulitarian.

Ian

Yeah, I've seen aperture scales like you describe-- as opposed to using standard scale for small openings with the maximum aperture hanging by itself off the bottom-- it lists all the smaller f-stops referenced to the lens max aperture. Have mostly seen that on Soviet lenses, and (like you) an old German folder, and (now that I think about it) a very early Plaubel Makina. Your having seen f/23 somewhere else puts you one up on me. ETA -- It felt like a mistake, but it turns out that 16 x 1.414 = 22.6-- so ackshually, every other camera is wrong!

Kino · Jan 16, 2023

JPD said:
The shutter is either an unmarked AGC Vario, or an imitation of one. The engravings on the real Vario use to be thicker, so this example reminds me of the Soviet copy.

This is a very simple camera, and probably sold by a store chain or mail order company under it's own name. That's why there are no proud brand or manufacturer markings. Would the anti-capitalist Soviets have done that?

Oh yeah. Beryozka shops (foreign currency shops) could have done that, as well as the even higher-end stores for the Communist Elite.

Some were certainly more equal that others!

JPD · Jan 17, 2023

Kino said:
Oh yeah. Beryozka shops (foreign currency shops) could have done that, as well as the even higher-end stores for the Communist Elite.

Some were certainly more equal that others!

The Beryozka unequality shops came to be in 1964, though. A little too late for this camera.

Speaking of aperture scales, this Goerz 9x12 camera from 1914 has the "modern" scale, 6,8 - 8 - 11 - 16 - 22... Nice Syntor lens too, and good price, if the Compund shutter works. https://www.ebay.de/itm/255928142804

Kino · Jan 17, 2023

JPD said:
The Beryozka unequality shops came to be in 1964, though. A little too late for this camera.

Hmmm... I thought that was a generic term. Anyway, there had to be "special" shops prior to 1964 for the Apparatchik and they could have sold this camera.

Zackyist · Jan 17, 2023

Oh wow, this garnered more attention than I expected. Thank you, everyone of you, for your insights! So it seems this isn't anything special, probably just a cheap camera from 1910-1940 with a Vario (clone) shutter. I guess we will never know for sure but it's quite enough knowing it's likely not valuable or anything. As a note, yes, the body is completely made of wood (except for the film gate, shutter and rails) so either it's an old one or an economical one (or both).

bernard_L said:
The inside-out bumps near the top right corner of the film window (last picture) don't look too good. Might signal that the front of the camera has suffered a significant blow.

It actually seems like the metal plate supporting the shutter on the rails was just pushed too far with too much force - it has quite a nasty and rusty lack of paint in the corresponding spot on the frontside. Luckily the bumps are less sharp and shorter than they appear in the picture but it's true that they might damage the film or mess up the film plane.

Donald Qualls said:
There's also the crease in the bed (visible with the color change in the leather at the upper bed corner).

Overall, I'd suggest that with a meniscus achromat lens and push-pull focusing, this was never going to be any better than it had to be to make acceptable contact prints (6x9 on 120) and might be better as a shelf queen than trying to put back into service.

Hmm, can you point out the crease? I must have really selective vision right now. The bed is the inner side of the door where the rails sit, right?

And yeah, I wasn't expecting to do miracles with this one, haha. I think I might sacrifice a cheap roll of Fomapan to try it out though (and to see if the bumps mess with the film), just for the fun of it. The results probably won't end up in any art galleries though.

Ian Grant said:
What's odd here is the f23 marking and I have seen it before, the more I look, think, see, it's Soviet. Ulitarian.

That aperture seemed really weird to me too but after some googling it appears there are other folders with that stop as well (e.g. the Dehel, manufactured 1933-1950).

JPD · Jan 17, 2023

Kino said:
Hmmm... I thought that was a generic term. Anyway, there had to be "special" shops prior to 1964 for the Apparatchik and they could have sold this camera.

Probably, because the Apparatchik wanted their fotoapparatclicks.

JPD · Jan 17, 2023

Zackyist said:
Oh wow, this garnered more attention than I expected. Thank you, everyone of you, for your insights! So it seems this isn't anything special, probably just a cheap camera from 1910-1940 with a Vario (clone) shutter. I guess we will never know for sure but it's quite enough knowing it's likely not valuable or anything. As a note, yes, the body is completely made of wood (except for the film gate, shutter and rails) so either it's an old one or an economical one (or both).

The wood says "very old" for a normal folding camera. Already in the mid-1920's almost all were all metal (ok, and leather) except for tropical plate cameras. If you got it from a Finnish source, perhaps it was sold by a Finnish store or mail order company, and if you are lucky you could find it in an old catalog. The Swedish company Stölten & Son bought cameras from Welta Kamerawerke, and others, in Germany and rebranded them "Stölma". Rebranding cameras, lenses and film, was common back then, and I guess it was cheaper to buy cameras in bulk and skipping the step of engraving or embossing a name.

JPD · Jan 17, 2023

The recessed sliding knob, how the carry strap is fastened and also the knobs you use to pull out and lock the front standard in place, remind me of Contessa-Nettel. Maybe it was made by Contessa or Nettel before the merger in 1919?

Old Contessa Nettel 6x9 roll film camera

Old Contessa Nettel 6x9 roll film camera, Derval shutter, in good used condition, please note the pictures and description.

shop.kusera.de

Donald Qualls · Jan 17, 2023

Zackyist said:
Hmm, can you point out the crease?

The bed is the "door" itself; on the photo that shows the closed front of the camera, see the corner of the leather that's a different color? The crease is where the light joins the dark.

k.hendrik · Jan 18, 2023

My dime;

Geschichte

Help identifying an old folding camera?

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