Help finding E-6 chemicals

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 21, 2012

Hello. This is my first thread on apug. I live in Brazil and things here are getting bad for home-developing. Three-bath Tetenal Kits are ridiculously overpriced (near 4x its cost in Europe) and are mostly out of sale in stores. Last time I ordered a Kit I waited for 8 months just to know that they were all sold in the first day.

So me and a group of friends are now doing our own chemicals. For B&W it was very easy, but for E-6 it has been a harsh task.

We can´t find CD-2 and CD-4 developing agents and a special kind of phenidone: 4-hydroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone.

Can you help me find a company to suply this products? My e-mail is roberto@outex.com.

Thanks in advance. Best Regards.

mts · Oct 22, 2012

If I recall correctly you need CD-3 for E6 and you likely won't be able to find a source for HQ-monosulfate. There have been several replies here to alternatives for E6 but official E6 is hard to duplicate with current chemical suppliers. CD-4 will work, but is not optimal for permanence of dies and for getting color balance exactly correct.

StoneNYC · Oct 22, 2012

Have you tried ordering from the states? As un USA.

"Arista E-6" or "Arista Rapid E-6" they have a 3 bath kit that's reusable with calculations for extending the use of the chemicals for multiple rolls.

Good Luck!

polyglot · Oct 22, 2012

As I recall (from an ancient APUG thread), Brazil has ridiculous import tariffs. So while shipping a kit in is probably physically possible, it might be prohibitively expensive. My guess is that the OP would hope to source raw chemistry far cheaper than a kit, despite the high tariffs.

I personally use the Fuji 5L kits from Ag Photo in the UK and have them shipped to AU. Comes out to about $200 for 50 rolls, but that's 1/3 of the price of walking into a lab and we don't have import tariffs on photo chemistry except 10% GST on packages over $1000.

Rudeofus · Oct 22, 2012

The "special kind of phenidone" you refer to is Kodak's "Dimezone S" and it works like Phenidone but needs about twice the amount per volume. Its main advantage is that it is stable in alkaline environment, but if you use the working solution on the same day, for all practical purposes Phenidone works just as well.

As far as CD-3 (the one you want for E6) is concerned, this should be fairly easy to obtain since RA4 also uses it, and RA4 is also used for making digital prints.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

mts said:
If I recall correctly you need CD-3 for E6 and you likely won't be able to find a source for HQ-monosulfate. There have been several replies here to alternatives for E6 but official E6 is hard to duplicate with current chemical suppliers. CD-4 will work, but is not optimal for permanence of dies and for getting color balance exactly correct.

I received your formulary. Thank you and congratulations! It´s an amazing piece of work. I will talk to my friends and will reply you as soon as I have something done.

You say "Note also that the latent image properties for reversal films are not long lived". On "latent image" you say the film BEFORE developing? Is that it? If so I may have a problem because since the E-6 developing costs skyrocketed in Brazil I stopped sending the films to develop and keep them frozen (-18°C).

I have films from 2 years ago. Do you think I may lose something because of the age?

Thank you.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

Yes, I tried from Freestyle, but:

"NOTE: This item is classified as ORMD. Due to shipping regulations these items can only be shipped via Ground in the Continental United States. ORMD items cannot be shipped to PO boxes."

Link here.

Thank you.

wogster · Oct 22, 2012

RobertoMiglioli said:
Yes, I tried from Freestyle, but:

"NOTE: This item is classified as ORMD. Due to shipping regulations these items can only be shipped via Ground in the Continental United States. ORMD items cannot be shipped to PO boxes."

Link here.

Thank you.

Many colour photo chemicals are classed as dangerous goods or ORMD, this means international shipping is much more difficult, you need special paperwork and you need to have arrangements in place to get spills contained and cleaned up en route. That's fine if your Kodak or Fujifilm, but not if your someone else. You can always do some digging, I found this in about 8 seconds. It's the distributor for Fujifilm products in Brazil, try contacting them and see if they can help you out.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

polyglot said:
As I recall (from an ancient APUG thread), Brazil has ridiculous import tariffs. So while shipping a kit in is probably physically possible, it might be prohibitively expensive. My guess is that the OP would hope to source raw chemistry far cheaper than a kit, despite the high tariffs.

I personally use the Fuji 5L kits from Ag Photo in the UK and have them shipped to AU. Comes out to about $200 for 50 rolls, but that's 1/3 of the price of walking into a lab and we don't have import tariffs on photo chemistry except 10% GST on packages over $1000.

It is true. Import taxes doubles (actually, it´s a bit more) the price of the good + freight. And that´s why we are trying to make our own chemicals.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

Rudeofus said:
The "special kind of phenidone" you refer to is Kodak's "Dimezone S" and it works like Phenidone but needs about twice the amount per volume. Its main advantage is that it is stable in alkaline environment, but if you use the working solution on the same day, for all practical purposes Phenidone works just as well.

Really?! So you mean that if I use regular phenidone I must use the solution within a day? How long will it last? Is it possivel to use regular phenidone and keep the working solution on low temperature to make it lasts longer? How cold should it be?

Rudeofus said:
As far as CD-3 (the one you want for E6) is concerned, this should be fairly easy to obtain since RA4 also uses it, and RA4 is also used for making digital prints.

As far as I know it is CD-2 and CD-4, but I´m not positive sure. Probably you are right.

Thank you for this information. They were certainly very helpfull.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

wogster said:
Many colour photo chemicals are classed as dangerous goods or ORMD, this means international shipping is much more difficult, you need special paperwork and you need to have arrangements in place to get spills contained and cleaned up en route.

Yes, I understand (and appreciate) all this concern about flying safety.

wogster said:
You can always do some digging, I found this in about 8 seconds. It's the distributor for Fujifilm products in Brazil, try contacting them and see if they can help you out.

Not only I called them as I´v been there. It´s 20 min walking from my house. They were very nice and helpfull (like all you guys). They even gave me Fujifilm's Pro-6 handbook. They don´t call it "E-6".

The problem is that they don´t have small 5-liters or 10-liters Kit, only big 40-liters drums. And the process is a bit tricky because in some point you need make air bubbles go through the solution and I don´t know how to do it in my Jobo.

Not to mention that a few time ago Fujifilm stopped to sell Pro-6 chemicals what caused a shortage on the market and all labs stopped developing chrome untill Fujifilm resume the selling.

Conclusion: we can´t trust on Fujifilm.

wogster · Oct 22, 2012

RobertoMiglioli said:
It is true. Import taxes doubles (actually, it´s a bit more) the price of the good + freight. And that´s why we are trying to make our own chemicals.

I can understand a high tariff for goods that are also manufactured domestically, but for things where they are not available from domestic sources, it's simply gouging by the government...

polyglot · Oct 22, 2012

RobertoMiglioli said:
And the process is a bit tricky because in some point you need make air bubbles go through the solution and I don´t know how to do it in my Jobo.

Nitrogen bubbles, not air bubbles. They're there to agitate the bath without oxidising it.

Nitrogen is required only for deep-tank processing where it's used to stir the developer up, keep it uniformly mixed and move the exhausted stuff away from the film to be replaced by fresh stuff. The rotary action of the Jobo accomplishes all that so (assuming you can find chemistry) you can stop worrying about bubbles.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

wogster said:
I can understand a high tariff for goods that are also manufactured domestically, but for things where they are not available from domestic sources, it's simply gouging by the government...

There are lots of stupid things in my country. Unfortunatelly I live under a governement which I didn´t vote on. If I could rule this nation with an iron fist things would be much easier...

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 22, 2012

polyglot said:
Nitrogen bubbles, not air bubbles. They're there to agitate the bath without oxidising it.

Nitrogen is required only for deep-tank processing where it's used to stir the developer up, keep it uniformly mixed and move the exhausted stuff away from the film to be replaced by fresh stuff. The rotary action of the Jobo accomplishes all that so (assuming you can find chemistry) you can stop worrying about bubbles.

That´s are good news. Thank you.

And what about my other questions?

wogster · Oct 22, 2012

RobertoMiglioli said:
Yes, I understand (and appreciate) all this concern about flying safety.

Not only I called them as I´v been there. It´s 20 min walking from my house. They were very nice and helpfull (like all you guys). They even gave me Fujifilm's Pro-6 handbook. They don´t call it "E-6".

The problem is that they don´t have small 5-liters or 10-liters Kit, only big 40-liters drums. And the process is a bit tricky because in some point you need make air bubbles go through the solution and I don´t know how to do it in my Jobo.

Not to mention that a few time ago Fujifilm stopped to sell Pro-6 chemicals what caused a shortage on the market and all labs stopped developing chrome untill Fujifilm resume the selling.

Conclusion: we can´t trust on Fujifilm.

I used Fuji as an example, you can do your own research on other possible products. If you want to roll your own, the key is to find a bulk chemical importer. They may be able to get the chemicals you need from their suppliers. The only thing CD3 and CD4 are trade names for actual chemicals, bulk suppliers probably need the chemical names . I found the names here They are long and torturous so you can hit the link for them. The key with bulk chemical importers, is they import lots of other dangerous stuff, so they are dealing with the importing and proper paperwork, although it may still be expensive. Take the formulas to the supplier to see if they can get everything on your list.

Athiril · Oct 23, 2012

You can make CD-3 with the raw components, if you're into that, the raw components are still "exotic" but much much less so and more common reagents, you can get through chemical suppliers. Failing that CD-3 can be had via India and China chemical companies, probably easiest to do that via Alibaba.com

CD-3 can be precipitated out of ECN-2 developer part B concentrate fairly easily too, into pink powder-like crystals (once dry).

There's also 2 different forms of CD-3, so you'd need to change the weight amount you use to match etc.

CD-2 is used for ECP-2 only iirc, motion picture print film. CD-3 is RA-4 and E-6.

Rudeofus · Oct 23, 2012

RobertoMiglioli said:
Really?! So you mean that if I use regular phenidone I must use the solution within a day? How long will it last? Is it possivel to use regular phenidone and keep the working solution on low temperature to make it lasts longer? How cold should it be?

I can't tell you exact numbers, but on more than one occasion I have self mixed developers and used them after a few days without problems. I did not do any sensitometric tests, though, and my b&w devs worked at much lower pH than E6 FD. Note that most commercial developers are made with Dimezone-S, but their concentrates are expected to have long shelf lives. Testing will be the only way to find out, in other words, don't use it on your most important roll first if you use the dev after a week.

RobertoMiglioli said:
As far as I know it is CD-2 and CD-4, but I´m not positive sure. Probably you are right.

Look (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for a recipe which comes from Fuji's patents and which has PhotoEngineer's official blessing. All Cd-x compounds will produce colors, but with slightly different hue and stability. Since the dye couplers in E6 are specifically made to work with CD-3, that's what I would use.

You will have problems getting the highly toxic 1-Thioglycerol, but it can be substituted by other compounds or left out at the expense of a bit longer bleach times. The stabilizer can be substituted by a simple recipe provided (there was a url link here which no longer exists). If you do that, you don't need the "Formaldehyde sodium bisulfite adduct" in the prebleach any more. The "Nitrilo-N,N,N-trimethylene phosphonic acid pentasodium salt" is a chelating agent which you can leave out if you use distilled water. Note that you will have to adjust pH if you change compositions!

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 23, 2012

wogster said:
If you want to roll your own, the key is to find a bulk chemical importer. They may be able to get the chemicals you need from their suppliers. The only thing CD3 and CD4 are trade names for actual chemicals, bulk suppliers probably need the chemical names . I found the names here. They are long and torturous so you can hit the link for them. The key with bulk chemical importers, is they import lots of other dangerous stuff, so they are dealing with the importing and proper paperwork, although it may still be expensive. Take the formulas to the supplier to see if they can get everything on your list.

Yes, that´s what I want. I didn´t know CD2, CD3, etc, were trade names. Thank you. Your link was fantastic.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 23, 2012

Athiril said:
You can make CD-3 with the raw components, if you're into that, the raw components are still "exotic" but much much less so and more common reagents, you can get through chemical suppliers. Failing that CD-3 can be had via India and China chemical companies, probably easiest to do that via Alibaba.com

CD-3 can be precipitated out of ECN-2 developer part B concentrate fairly easily too, into pink powder-like crystals (once dry).

There's also 2 different forms of CD-3, so you'd need to change the weight amount you use to match etc.

CD-2 is used for ECP-2 only iirc, motion picture print film. CD-3 is RA-4 and E-6.

Thank you. I think it won´t be difficult to order these components.

Yes, you are right: E6 uses CD3 and not CD2, CD4 as I thought.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 23, 2012

Rudeofus said:
I can't tell you exact numbers, but on more than one occasion I have self mixed developers and used them after a few days without problems. I did not do any sensitometric tests, though, and my b&w devs worked at much lower pH than E6 FD. Note that most commercial developers are made with Dimezone-S, but their concentrates are expected to have long shelf lives. Testing will be the only way to find out, in other words, don't use it on your most important roll first if you use the dev after a week.

Ok, thanks. Sorry, I didn´t understand what you say with "and my b&w devs worked at much lower pH than E6 FD". Could you explain better?

Rudeofus said:
Look here for a recipe which comes from Fuji's patents and which has PhotoEngineer's official blessing. All Cd-x compounds will produce colors, but with slightly different hue and stability. Since the dye couplers in E6 are specifically made to work with CD-3, that's what I would use.

Yes, you are right. I didn´t remember where I read CD2 or CD4 but now it sure is CD3. Thanks.

Rudeofus said:
You will have problems getting the highly toxic 1-Thioglycerol, but it can be substituted by other compounds or left out at the expense of a bit longer bleach times. The stabilizer can be substituted by a simple recipe provided here. If you do that, you don't need the "Formaldehyde sodium bisulfite adduct" in the prebleach any more. The "Nitrilo-N,N,N-trimethylene phosphonic acid pentasodium salt" is a chelating agent which you can leave out if you use distilled water. Note that you will have to adjust pH if you change compositions!

Fantastic! Thank you very much.

Rudeofus · Oct 23, 2012

RobertoMiglioli said:
Ok, thanks. Sorry, I didn´t understand what you say with "and my b&w devs worked at much lower pH than E6 FD". Could you explain better?

PhotoEngineer has posted on numerous occasions that Phenidone is unstable at high pH. This indicates to me that the destruction of Phenidone goes faster as pH is raised. Now if you look at the average fine grain B&W developer, you have pH of 8.2-9. If you look at E6 FD from the formula I linked to, you see pH 9.6. Therefore I would guess that E6 FD mixed with Phenidone is less stable than fine grain B&W developer mixed with Phenidone.

I wouldn't worry about it going bad in a day or two, but I wouldn't use it over a much longer time span. Mix the chemistry (1l per 10-12 rolls of film) for as many rolls as you can process within one or two days, use it, then discard. Not much different from using a regular kit, just a bit less time to process a batch of films.

Athiril · Oct 23, 2012

Rudeofus said:
PhotoEngineer has posted on numerous occasions that Phenidone is unstable at high pH. This indicates to me that the destruction of Phenidone goes faster as pH is raised. Now if you look at the average fine grain B&W developer, you have pH of 8.2-9. If you look at E6 FD from the formula I linked to, you see pH 9.6. Therefore I would guess that E6 FD mixed with Phenidone is less stable than fine grain B&W developer mixed with Phenidone.

I wouldn't worry about it going bad in a day or two, but I wouldn't use it over a much longer time span. Mix the chemistry (1l per 10-12 rolls of film) for as many rolls as you can process within one or two days, use it, then discard. Not much different from using a regular kit, just a bit less time to process a batch of films.

First Developer lasts quite a while, both the working tank and replenisher. Both in small amounts in glass bottles for home processing, and large floating tank for dip and dunk (which is what I do here at work now).

There are two different CAS entries for CD-3, and both differ a bit, there is 25646-71-3 which is the one used on most products iirc, and there is also 24567-76-8.

For 25646-71-3 the data on different chemical website databases vary for that exact same CAS number and the molecular weight varies between 200 something g/mol to 800 something g/mol depending on which site you're on, so it can be annoying. Both 24-567-76-8 should be the 800 something version with a lot more sulphuric acid attached to it.

Here is one http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/256474150/CD_3.html

There's also some companies that'll do direct b2b in smaller quantities I think it's an Indian one, with it's own site not through Alibaba.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 23, 2012

Rudeofus said:
PhotoEngineer has posted on numerous occasions that Phenidone is unstable at high pH. This indicates to me that the destruction of Phenidone goes faster as pH is raised. Now if you look at the average fine grain B&W developer, you have pH of 8.2-9. If you look at E6 FD from the formula I linked to, you see pH 9.6. Therefore I would guess that E6 FD mixed with Phenidone is less stable than fine grain B&W developer mixed with Phenidone.

I wouldn't worry about it going bad in a day or two, but I wouldn't use it over a much longer time span. Mix the chemistry (1l per 10-12 rolls of film) for as many rolls as you can process within one or two days, use it, then discard. Not much different from using a regular kit, just a bit less time to process a batch of films.

Ok, thanks. Understood.

RobertoMiglioli · Oct 23, 2012

Athiril said:
There are two different CAS entries for CD-3, and both differ a bit, there is 25646-71-3 which is the one used on most products iirc, and there is also 24567-76-8.

For 25646-71-3 the data on different chemical website databases vary for that exact same CAS number and the molecular weight varies between 200 something g/mol to 800 something g/mol depending on which site you're on, so it can be annoying. Both 24-567-76-8 should be the 800 something version with a lot more sulphuric acid attached to it.

Thanks. I read many times but I didn´t understand quite well. Which one should I use? 25646-71-3 or 24567-76-8?

Help finding E-6 chemicals

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