Help, can anyone please clarify 2 X 3 format for me?

steven_e007 · May 3, 2012

I'm not sure if I'm in the right place - I'm teetering around in that grey area between medium and large format...

I ordered some plate holders on eeeBeeeGeeeBay.

Fidelity, looked very nice and clean, the seller despatched them promptly and I got them for a nice low price.

Now the bad news. He had described them as 'Quarter Plate'.

Nope... I could see straight away they were smaller than that. Oh hum, either kick up a fuss... or use them for something else?

I measured them up, thinking they must be 2.5 by 3.5 inch. (6.5 X 9 cm).

Nope.. smaller than that

6 X 9, then? 2.25 X 3.25 inch?

NOPE - not quite

On a lot of American sites I have seen baby speed graphic described as 2 X 3. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that these were really 2.25 X 3.25 inch, but this had been abbreviated to 2 X 3 for brevity.

Can anyone clarify this, please?

The holders actually seem to be 55 by 90 or so millimetres, which is about 2.1 by 3,5 inches. I can not slip a strip of 120 roll film into the holder, it is too narrow... I had assumed that 120 roll film would be the same width as 2.25 cut film. Again, maybe wrongly.

Is there in fact a 2 X 3 inch size?

Or is 2 1/1/4 inch in roll-film speak different to 2 1/4" in sheet film speak?

Thanks.

Ian Grant · May 3, 2012

Yes there's a US 2x3 format, see Wikipedia, and that's what was used with the baby Graflex and similar cameras.

If you're buying modern International sized Fidelity holders I don't think these were made in Quarter plate only 9x12 (same outside dimensions as 5x4).

Ian

mikebarger · May 3, 2012

If your using a 4x5 omega enlarger I think I have a couple 2x3 cut film holders.

Mike

removed account4 · May 3, 2012

hi stev

i think sometimes they were exactly 2x3,
and sometimes the 1/2 ... 1/4 were dropped for ease
http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/graphic-models.html
has a table of all the graflex and graphic models
and they are 2 1/2 x3 1/4 ... just like its larger cousin was the 3 1/2 x4 1/4
i have a graphic "23" roll back for my 4x5 camera ( that isn't really 4x5 either, but 3 7/8 x 4 7/8 )
but there were several different models of that back
i always thought the roll film back was 2x3" but it turns out they weren't ...
they were ... 2-5/16 x 3-1/8 and 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 ...

have fun with your new camera, and if you find the mini roll film back for it,
GRAB IT, they don't surface too often

john

ChuckP · May 3, 2012

If I remember right 120 roll film is larger then 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 sheet film. Two different sizes of carriers are used in enlargers. I have both types for my 23C.

mopar_guy · May 3, 2012

Film size 2-1/4 x 3-1/4

As stated, the baby Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic takes a sheet film holder for size 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 sheet film. The image size (gate size of the film holder) is 2x3.

For roll film, the same cameras can use a rollfilm holder and produce an image that is roughly 2x2 or 2x3 (as well as some other formats).

For my Beseler 23C II enlarger, there are negative carriers for the roll film as well as the sheet film. The carrier #8060 is for roll film with a 2x2 size and the carrier #8062 is for roll film with a 2x3 size. The negative carrier #8063 is for 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 sheet film.

I believe that there is also a metric size for sheet film of 6.5 x 9.

bsdunek · May 3, 2012

My Mamiya Press is listed as 6X9 cm or 2X3 in. 2X3 is an abbreviation for 2 1/4 X 3 1/4. The cut film holders won't take a piece of 120 film; it's too wide. If I buy 6X9 cut film, it fits fine. Moral is, you can't cut 120 film and use it because it's wider. You might not like it anyway, as it is also thinner. Cut film is on a thicker base.
I've been using EFKE 2 1/4 X 3 1/4 http://www.freestylephoto.biz/19152...so-50-2.25-x-3.25-inches-25-sheets?cat_id=404

For more confulion, check the charts on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_format Now I'm more confused than ever. Over to you, John. You explained much more simply.

mopar_guy · May 3, 2012

If you would like to get some sheet film in 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 size, The annual Ilford ULF special order is happening soon. You could order some FP4+ or HP5+ in this size.

steven_e007 · May 3, 2012

Thanks guys... it appears the answer is that 2 1/4" sheet film is narrow than 120 roll film.

Alas, I have no camera (or enlarger) for these holders, just the holders! I was hoping for quarter plate holders, I have several quarter plate cameras.

stillsilver · May 3, 2012

Sounds like a very good reason to get another camera and enlarger .

Mike

Oren Grad · May 3, 2012

Ian Grant said:
If you're buying modern International sized Fidelity holders I don't think these were made in Quarter plate only 9x12 (same outside dimensions as 5x4).

http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/fidelity_3_1_4_x_4_1_4_film_holder/ls3400

I have several of these - Calumet sold off a bunch cheap via eBay a few years ago.

Ian Grant · May 3, 2012

Oren Grad said:
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/fidelity_3_1_4_x_4_1_4_film_holder/ls3400

I have several of these - Calumet sold off a bunch cheap via eBay a few years ago.

British made Quarter plate cameras took book-form holders or double darkslides with grooverd edges, alternately there were German & similar style UK, French etc 9x12 camears with quarter plate backs, these holders are single sided and very thin.

Kodak did import a few Graflex cameras though. I knew Graflex made quarter plate holders but wasn't aware Fidelity made them they weren't advertsied here in the UK

Last year there was a stall holder at Wolverhampton camera fair with some large boxes full of different plate & film holders (all inexpensive no regulat 5x4 etyc though) and someone like that's the best place to get what Steve needs.

Ian

mopar_guy · May 3, 2012

Oren Grad said:
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/fidelity_3_1_4_x_4_1_4_film_holder/ls3400

I have several of these - Calumet sold off a bunch cheap via eBay a few years ago.

$37.99 sure isn't cheap.

John Austin · May 3, 2012

I ended up with a 1/4 pt Speed Graphic with no DDS, but the correct RFB - I have toyed with the idea of a few 1/4pt DDS for it but reading this thread has left me confuseder than ever and detirmined to stay with 5x4 and 10x8 as I understand them

I will just use the 1/4pt SG with the RFB for something - Actually nothing, so I will offer it for sale - Too much confusion with too many formats

John

steven_e007 · May 4, 2012

stillsilver said:
Sounds like a very good reason to get another camera and enlarger .

Mike

More equipment?

I don't need reasons... I need therapy

graywolf · May 4, 2012

Yep, the 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 is probably the most obtuse film size ever.

Europe: 6.5x9 sheet film.

England: 2-1/2 x 3-1/2 or 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 sheet film.

USA : 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 sheet film.

Roll film: 120 or 620; 6x9 (2-1/4 x 3-1/4) or 6x6 (2-1/4 x2-1/4) or 6x7 (2-1/4 x 2-3/4), or 6x4.5 (2-1/2 x 1-5/8). Then there is 70mm cine film, 116 or 616 roll film (2-1/2 wide), and a lot of other obsolete film sizes.

The thing about all of those despite often being called the same thing, they are all slightly different than each other.

About the only English size sheet film that was popular in Europe and the USA was 3-1/4 x 4-1/4 (quarter plate size). Plate sizes came about due to the standard sizes of plate glass prior to the big rollerized manufacture. 6-1/2 x 8-1/2 in England, 5x7 or 8x10 in the USA, 18cm x 24cm (I think) in Europe. Those were often cut in half or in quarters for use in smaller cameras.

Roll film on the other hand was usually based on the size and shape of the spools, so there were often many different roll films that had similar, but not exactly the same size negatives. The largest roll film negative I know of was 5in x 7in. 5x7 seemed to have been the upper size limit for hand held cameras.

E. von Hoegh · May 5, 2012

The best way to clarify 2x3 is place unexposed film in fixer for 20 minutes or so, then wash and dry as usual.

Tony-S · May 6, 2012

bsdunek said:
My Mamiya Press is listed as 6X9 cm or 2X3 in.

Precisely, they are 84mm x 56.5mm.

Prof_Pixel · May 6, 2012

I have a 23 Speed Graphic that I used a lot in the late '50s and early '60s. I have two negative carriers for my Omega B8 enlarger; one for 2 1/4 x 3/1/4 sheet film and one for 120 roll film 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 images. The third size (which I haven't seen mentioned here) was the 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 film pack. The film size was wider than 120 roll film and needed cutting to work in the roll film holder (if I remember correctly).

Help, can anyone please clarify 2 X 3 format for me?

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