Help Again! Looking for a Different 4x5

I've been using an Arca Swiss 4x5 F-Line Classic and I've been unable to do the sort of photography that I would like to do. What I like is being able to walk around with the camera in my backpack, and to not have to worry about it. That means a few things, first of all, weight, size, breakability (is that a word?) and also being able to walk into a store without knocking things over (I use a photo trekker now, which is huge, but I prefered using my Rover AW).

I bought the Arca Swiss because I knew it would give me everything I wanted- it's a monorail and my main subject is architecture. However, I'm really not enjoying walking around with this on my back. I really liked walking around with my Hasselblad and tripod, it wasn't a burden. I'm almost considering giving up on LF but I'm hoping someone out there has a suggestion.

At the moment I'm looking at the Ebony 45s and RW45E (unfortunately, I had looked at both of those before but I went with the Arca Swiss instead). They're lighter, not by much, but they give the camera movements I want (though the RW45E has no shift).

I really want something sturdy, with smooth movements, and is high-quality. Most of my work tends to be wide angle (mostly architecture) but I also do really enjoy close ups (other end of the spectrum...).

I also want something I don't have to worry about when it's in my backpack. With my Lowepro Rover AW I used to throw it around (seriously...) with my Hasselblad inside- I knew it was safe. Ok... throwing is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think people will hopefully understand what I mean. Usually I hear that the field cameras can take the most abuse, but then they're also usually not as suited for wide angle photography (by the way, can the Ebony RW45E use full movements with a 90mm lens? How about a 65 or 75mm?) How do their non-folding cameras compare?

If anyone has any other recommendations then please let me know. However, the Ebony's are as expesive as I would like to go, and preferably I'd like to get something cheaper (maybe a Wista or Shen Hao), but I just keep thinking the Ebony is the one to get.

Any opinions?

While not exactly "cheap", I think you should check out Gandolfi before you decide. They are very sturdy, and smooth, and yet versatile. I'm impressed with my Traditional 5x7" - and my previous 5x7" camera was a Technika!

There was a recent thread by Steven Nestler to which many people added a great deal of detailed comment on relative merits of Ebony vs ShenHao and other field cameras.
I have used the non-folding Ebony 45SU for two years and will not ever want for more. Previously owned an RSW for two years, which was good, but became restrictive for images other than vistas. I also have a traditional Gandolfi Precision, which can mostly achieve the same result, only 20x slower. The assymmetric movements of the SU are an unfair advantage, which I mercilessly exploit! Non-folding to the uninitiated sounds odd, but they are great. Ready to go, lens already attached, straight out of the Lowe-pro........
Also means equally quick and easy to pack away, so I do this rather than risk walking along seeking next image with the camera attached to tripod.

For something thats rugged, micro light, teenie weenie and has lots of movement I doubt if you can beat a Gowland 4x5 Pocket model. You can probably fit it in inside a cargo pocket---hows that for mobility? Takes a bit of getting used to, though. A Crown or Speed Graphic would certainly qualify in the rugged dept. I can fit mine in a day pack with everything I need for an afternoon on shooting and are reputed to handle 90mm(I've never had a 90mm aboard mine, maybe others can verify if this is true)

Cheers!

No problem using a Nikkor 90mm f/8 on a Crown Graphic.

I'll go with Baxter on this one! An Ebony either the S or the SU, both non-folding and can be carried around with any (almost!) lens attached ready to go! Super stable, lightweight (ish) and very quick to set up and "break" down.

Thanks for your recommendations,

At the moment I've found two used Ebonys, the RW45E and 45S, which are at nice prices. However, as much as I would absolutely love an SU with the assymetrical movements, I don't have that kind of money. In fact, I'm borrowing a bit to purchase the 45S or RW45. If I had a job that made any momey, then I'd look into the SU, but I only make on average about $200 a month, and $150 of that pays for gas each month!

I've looked that the gandolfis too, but they were pricey too and not quite what I wanted. I'd also looked at the gowland pocket view, and while perfect for putting in a backpack, it also didn't seem for me. As for the crown graphics, well I've just never been interested in them (though I have heard a lot of great things about them).

Now for a new question: Would you choose the Ebony over the Arca Swiss? Tto refresh people's memories it's a 4x5 F-Line Classic. I'm only saving a few pounds and lose some camera movements. Also, from what I've heard, no wood camera is a smooth as a metal camera and that the Arca Swiss camera movements are about the smoothest of the metal cameras. Is this true or does the Ebony have smooth movements? I have to admit though, this might sound really trivial, but the handle on the Ebony cameras really appeals to me- I really don't like carrying my Arca upside down by the monorail.

Obviously you are happy with the camera and your only problem is transporting it. I dont know how difficult it would be but why dont you remove the rail to put it in the back pack?
Alternatively, why dont you drop Arca a line and ask them how much and how difficult it would be to convert the classic to the field line with the telescopic rail. It might be a cheaper and simpler solution than buying another camera.

Good luck.

Brent,

You really may want to look at the Shen Hao. I have had one for the past month and I've been very happy with it. Of course, I spent more than 6 months using a Toyo G monorail as a field camera. It and its case were over 40 lbs, then another 10 lbs worth of holders, meters, dark cloth etc. Finally I was using one of my cine tripods (Bogen 3033 legs, 116 head) so that added another 25 lbs. Even with a cart, it was a production.

If you can get your asking price for the Arca, you can come out waaayyy ahead with the Shen Hao. You wouldn't have to borrow money (which will come to be a good thing later) and could pick up an extra lens and still have some cash left.

Now for some geezer philosophy. These days (and when I was in College in the 80's) it is relatively easy to get school loans. These loans can make it seem like a good idea to purchase lots of things (cameras. lights, etc). But they have to be paid back. I have friends with $50,000+ in loans out for their education. Now they are 30, want a house but have close to a house payment in loans each month (and it will continue for 20+ years even after refinancing). So, for what free advice is worth, be careful with the loans.

Good idea George.

I'm not very familiar with the Arca Swiss, but have seen that it is a precision piece of engineering. To keep the focussing smooth but neither tight nor sloppy, the Ebony, being wood, can need the screws adjusting with seasons as the wood marginally expands and contracts depending upon your climate.
The movements are very smooth, but not geared as I understand is the case with some Arca cameras. LF cameras come in many shapes and sizes, so you should be able to get something that lights your fire.
Rather than making an immediate switch that will cost you precious money, I would strongly recommend trying to handle an Ebony, to see whether it really meets your needs and, in your book, is preferable to the Arca.
FWIW, the handle of mine gets minimal use when on the journey from bag to tripod.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to locate any dealers with Ebony cameras in my area. The best I can do is order it from Badger Graphic or Midwest Photo Exchange, and then return it if I don't like it; however, I'd rather not have to return something. I also wouldn't want to order something with the intent of trying it out and returning it.

The Arca-Swiss I have isn't geared, but it does have the telescoping rail, so I'm able to fit the camera in my backpack and I leave the bottom rail and other half of the top rail on my tripod, which has an Arca Swiss ballhead so I can just slide the rail down the tripod so it isn't sticking out; of course, it's pretty heavy like that.

At the moment I'm bidding on an Ebony 45S on ebay, (it's at about $1500) but I suspect the price will go up quite a bit more and I don't think I want to spend much more. If I got my asking price for my Arca Swiss then I might even possibly come out ahead.

The main reason I like the handle is just that I would carry it by hand, I usually take a number of photographs in one location, then pack up and go, so I certainly would like the handle. Of course I could drill holes in my Arca, but I really don't want to!

I've looked at the Shen Hao but I really didn't like it. I think my choice is either the Arca Swiss or the Ebony, in which case perhaps if I work out a bit then it will be more manageable (and better for my health I suppose). I'm looked over just about all the post threads I could and I just don't think anything out there fits my wants/needs (perhaps I'm just a bit pickey!)

I'm also planning on getting a different backpack, perhaps that will help a bit because the Photo Trekker on it's own is a bit heavy... And the photo trekker really can't carry much other than camera equipment, unless you use the daypack, which I really hate to use because it only adds more weight even further away from my body.

If none of that works out then I might just have to go back to my Hasselblad. Unfortunately, I remember walking around the Carmel Mission with my Hasselblad, after realizing how much better a camera with movements would be for me, and I really didn't enjoy using it as much... I had thought about the Arcbody, but it really is pricey and limited in use. Also, I really feel like a photographer with the 4x5...

Of course, giving up photography isn't an option, I'd rather give up eating.

Seriously...

brent, I know exactly what you mean about the portability. I also have an Arca Swiss (older model- "B") but wanted to have something to backpack with. I looked at getting rid of my Arca and getting an Ebony but I really like the Arca Swiss. In the end I bought a really nice Crown Graphic Special locally from a fellow that bought up all the Graphic equipment and parts when the company left Canada. It's limited as far as architecture goes so I use the Arca Swiss for that, but for landscapes while hiking you can't go wrong - and it was cheaper than a new lens. It really depends on what you are shooting and how fast you want to set up and shoot.

Before deciding, take a look at least, at Kerry Thalmann's article about the Toho FC 45X. It is, and therefore retains all the features of, a monorail, but is extremely light, portable, and not very expensive. Sounds to me like it would be an excellent solution to your problem.

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

Badger Graphics used to sell a FC-45X clone (the Badger M2, I think) for about half the cost of the Toho. They took them off the website due to difficulties with the manufacturer, but I'm not sure if it was a quality-control or intellectual property issue. It might be worth a call to see if there were still a couple in stock.

Have you looked at the Wisner Pocket Expedition? View camera movements in a very light body. You can switch to bag bellows in about 30 seconds. Made in the USA.

You already have a great camera, why not get a better transportation situation.... maybe a small suitcase w/little wheelies. Or pare down to 2x3. Or shoot 12x20 for a year then anything else will seem trivial. Not much will rival the quality of your Arca. Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

Go with the Shen-Hao. It offers everything you are looking for, and is much cheaper than the other cameras. It's easily transportrable, and fits easily in my Lowe-Pro AW Mini-Trekker with three lenses, filters, Readyload holder, film and various smaller items.

Emile de Leon said:

You already have a great camera, why not get a better transportation situation.... maybe a small suitcase w/little wheelies. Or pare down to 2x3. Or shoot 12x20 for a year then anything else will seem trivial. Not much will rival the quality of your Arca. Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

Click to expand...

Ha! I'm sure if I did try a 12x20 anything else would seem trivial, though I'm sure after I see those prints from a 12x20, I might just not be able to go to a smaller size. Of course, the bills for film and holders might be able to do that...

I do agree with you though. After searching I realized my intial research and feelings about the Aca were right, nothing else would rival it, at least not for what I do. Plus, I really do like my Arca...

I've since ordered a new backpack and will see how it works, but I wont get it for a few more days. I'd thought about the backpack with wheels, but I didn't think I'd enjoy working that way; though I will keep that option open in case nothing else works.

Anyway, instead of changing my camera I chose instead to change myself (how many people do that for their camera!) and am going to try to get in better shape, because I really am in bad shape now; I get tired walking up a flight or two of stairs, which really is pretty sad considering I'm in college and I used to run track and cross country in high school... Besides, it's good for my health to get in shape too. It also give me practice; now I'm changing to accomodate a camera, later I'll have to change to accomodate whatever poor woman gets stuck with me!

Hopefully the combination of being in decent shape and a better (hopefully) backpack will help me, along with just getting used to the larger format. I actually don't think there's any way I can go back to medium format now; not after using the 4x5. I used a Hasselblad the other day and I seriously looked at it as a point and shoot. I know that's not exactly fair, but there really is so much I couldn't do with it that I can do with my Arca (or another LF camera) since I don't do any action shots, or shots with people in them for that matter. In fact... none of my subjects move. Well, I guess trees and branches might sway a bit and if a building were moving then I think I'd be a bit freaked out...

I think I've caught the large format virus... I just cant go backwards... Imagine the problems I'll have if decide to get an 8x10...

brimc76 said:

In the end I bought a really nice Crown Graphic Special locally from a fellow that bought up all the Graphic equipment and parts when the company left Canada. It's limited as far as architecture goes so I use the Arca Swiss for that, but for landscapes while hiking you can't go wrong - and it was cheaper than a new lens.

Click to expand...

A very good point and a fast shooting cheap camera that you practically can't kill. Opens fast; You can leave various lenses on it and with a newer GG it makes a nice fast shooting landscape camera that folds up small. Turn the front standard backwards for forward tilt. Seriously, how much movements do you need for landscapes anyways? Shoot the AS for architecture.

Just wanted to leave an update. I recieved my new backpack (Lowepro Rover AW Plus) and it definetely suits my needs better. I believe the backpack itself is quite a bit lighter than the Photo Trekker, but it also keeps things closer to my back and just seems to work better for me.

Thank you all for your advice,
Brent