Help! Advice! And so forth.

Zygomorph · Dec 26, 2011

Hey all! Thanks in advance for what I am sure will be wonderful, mind-bendingly good advice.

OK, so I'm pretty sure I'm ready to step up to 4x5 after having done 6x6 for a year. Unfortunately, even though I was lucky to have Joel Sternfeld as a prof in school, he wasn't (and probably still isn't) super-technical and didn't give a lot of advice on equipment... it was all about color and content.

So I'm looking to do pretty basic landscape stuff like that: basic control over depth of field and mild perspective control (which I've been doing in PhotoShop from scans so far... shhh!) Stuff like this is pretty typical of what I'm going for: http://tumblr.com/Zag7Dy7phtep Or this: http://tumblr.com/Zag7Dy8HDG1- Or this: http://tumblr.com/Zag7DyBP4oDs

I also have visions of doing my own version of the photographic "Great American Novel" at some point, traveling the country, etc.

Anyway, I'm pretty much chomping at the bit and there's a guy selling some Technika IV's for 800 each, including 150mm Schneider Kreuznach lenses.

1) Is this an awesome price for some awesome equipment I should jump on now?
2) Or can I save some money and get something even simpler like a Graphic and be just as happy given what I want to accomplish?
3) Should I keeeeeeep saving and get a newer, light(er) folder?
4) Or a compact-ish monorail for street and travel?

Thanks!

John

JBrunner · Dec 26, 2011

Given your stated intentions the lack of movements on a Graphic will likely soon frustrate you. The Technika is a great camera, and will probably do what you need, but is still somewhat limited or inconvenient in some ways regarding movements. A wooden field camera like a Tachihara will be lighter and have a greater range and ease of movements, more than you will probably ever use. That's my mind-bendingly good advice. Other, possibly contradicting advice to follow.

Mark_S · Dec 26, 2011

First of all, I would encourage you to dive into large format, but be warned, I started in 35mm, and moved to medium format then got hooked on large format. The move from 35mm to 6x6 was a very minor move, I still did almost everything the same. With large format, you change the way you think about each image, and it is very different from small format photography. LF has definitely changed the way that I do MF and 35mm as well.

That said, in terms of camera, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Think more about a lens. The 150mm is a good focal length for 4x5 landscape photography - it gives you a decent amount of movement, and a natural viewing angle. What Jason says about the Tachihara is true (I love them), but I think that the Technika IV would work well to get you started. Another big consideration is darkroom. If you are going to get serious about LF, you will need to make sure that you have a darkroom that can handle 4x5 - processing film, printing etc. The price for the Technika sounds reasonable, but the camera and lens is only the down payment. Other cameras that I would look at would include the Tachihara, as well as the Chamonix which is a very well built chinese LF camera, and the other wooden field cameras...

FWIW, I do mostly 4x5 landscape photography. My primary camera is a Walker Titan field camera (similar movements to the Tachihara, but bigger and heavier, made of plastic rather than wood), I have Schneider lenses: 75mm, 90mm and 150mm - I use the 150 the most. In the darkroom I have a Beseler 45MX, and do my film processing with a Jobo CPP.

Zygomorph · Dec 26, 2011

As for the darkroom, mine is digital. Sorry! However, if I feel that I need to wet print, there are rooms to rent in NYC... Where I get my film developed actually.

Basically, I'm just trying to get a sense of how much movement is enough for me. I'm pretty much a normal to slightly wide kind of guy. Sternfeld, Shore, Wall, Struth, the Beschers... This is my tradition. I feel like i never do vertical compositions anymore (notwithstanding the fact that My main camera is the mamiya 6 with the 80mm), so that's why I feel like a Graphic or Technika might actually be enough for the next year at least.

I'm sure if I got a cam with lots of movements I'd end up using them ALL eventually, but i feel like that's that's not so important right now.

paul_c5x4 · Dec 26, 2011

If you're planning on doing landscape, then you'll probably end up hiking places. In which case, the weight of a metal folder like Linhof will become an issue. I don't think the lack of movements on a Technika is a real issue - For what it's worth, I use a little bit of rise & shift on the front stand and on rare occasions, some front tilt.

I'm getting to like my Wista Field - Unable to get a 300mm lens to focus real close, and the movements are not as great as some other cameras, but it is light.

Neanderman · Dec 26, 2011

For 4x5 landscapes, I found I liked a 135mm lens. It's a little wider than a 150mm, but not super wide.

I started out with an old Graphic -- the camera has some rise, some lateral shift and some tilt (if you reverse the front standard.) If you have a tight budget, it is plenty to get you started and they are very rugged. If budget isn't an issue, I'd second the idea of getting a wooden field camera.

Ed

tony lockerbie · Dec 27, 2011

I use a Tech V, and it is a bit heavy for field work I must admit, although it does have plenty of movements for the stuff that I shoot. I rarely use more than a little front tilt or rise, for which the Technika has plenty. If I had my drothers I would probably go for a wood field like the Tachihara, or if money was no object maybe an Ebony.

Brian C. Miller · Dec 27, 2011

I started with MF. I bought a Super Graphic, then later I bought a Toyo 45AX. I still have the Super Graphic, and it's my primary field camera. Why? I can pack it up easily on my folding bicycle.

You want: "basic control over depth of field and mild perspective control," so that really covers what a basic field camera will do. The 135mm Optar can give some really good sharpness, but it doesn't cover that well. A slightly better lens will give you adequate coverage when the movements are at their maximum.

While the back on my Graflex doesn't move independently, I use the tripod head for perspective control, and then adjust the front. Sure, it takes more fiddling, but it can be done.

If you find a camera at the price point you like, buy it. The camera should fit your shooting style. If you are going to use the camera hand-held, then get something with a built-in rangefinder. There are many models to choose from, and most are OK on the basic movements. If it will always be on a tripod, then just make a choice, go forth, photograph and be happy with it.

Paul Howell · Dec 27, 2011

I find that my Crown with a Kodak Extar135 povides enough movement for landscapes, some other 127 and 135s that came with Speeds and Crowns do not cover large movements even in a Crown. I also have a 210, 150 and 101, but these will not couple with the rangfinder. I carry a Crown with a monpod and use the rangfinder when hiking, sometimes hand held. The other press option is a Bushman or Superspeed which have more movement than a Speed or Crown.

Zygomorph · Dec 27, 2011

Thanks for all the helpful advice! I am thinking that I won't need super-duper movements, so I have actually contacted someone in the classifieds here about a Super Speed Graphic, which seems really dope! It also comes with a 6x6 rollfilm back, which seems comforting somehow...

PDH: Thanks for the real-world examples of how you use it, very useful. I think I will probably experiment with hand-holding, though my primary interest is with the whole "composing on the glass" slow-mo-style.

Brian C. Miller: What would your recommendations be for a step up from the 135mm Optar? Same as PDH's recs? Something that turns up on E-bay regularly with lensboard in tow would be good...

And (maybe) finally, what would a good tripod be for hiking about New York City with one of these cameras? (I did mention I mostly do uuuurban landscape, right? Right now I've got some kind of Bogen that's probably way too heavy to carry around when I go out stalking.

Brian C. Miller · Dec 27, 2011

I don't have any hard-and-fast recommendations. Unless you are photographing buildings, then the lens coverage generally isn't a problem at all. By and large, the lens is fine.

Now I'll tell you about when it isn't fine. Last year I was out in the countryside with both cameras. There's a lone tree that I like to try to photograph, and this time around I had decent light. The angle for it using my Toyo 45AX with Nikon 210mm lens meant that I was across a highway. This required quite a bit of rise, and 45AX can be adjusted for a massive amount of rise since the bed can be locked into an arbitrary position. The 210mm lens has plenty of light circle, so everything was fine. This wouldn't have been possible with my 135mm Optar.

I recommend that you check the archives on graflex.org, as I'm sure that it's a frequently asked question. I recently bought an older Fuji 135mm for my Toyo, but I doubt that it would fold up inside the Graflex. I saw Schneider 135mm Xenotar mentioned, but I don't have any experience with it.

The one thing that I found working with my Graflex is that I figured out how to make a scene work with the camera. So, yeah, it's not as flexible as other cameras, but it keeps on working for the vast majority of what I want.

Zygomorph · Dec 27, 2011

Brian, thanks so much! Yeah, I tend to let limitations be my guiding light when it comes to equipment. I've spent the past year with my Mamiya only doing squares and only using the normal lens. I've learned a lot!

And really, if I can't frame something naturally with a normal lens, or whatever lens I happen to have, then I'm probably not very interested in photographing it. We'll see!

Dan Fromm · Dec 27, 2011

Um, no one's told you that whatever camera you get will turn out to be wrong. This happens to nearly everyone. We think hard about what we want to accomplish and how to accomplish it, try to decide which camera does it best inside the budget, get it and then learn that we were mistaken. A Graphic isn't a bad camera to start with, they hold their value well ... But be prepared to discover that whatever you buy isn't right for what you actually do.

Good luck, have fun, just get a camera and shoot,

Dan

paul_c5x4 · Dec 27, 2011

Zygomorph said:
I have actually contacted someone in the classifieds here about a Super Speed Graphic, which seems really dope! It also comes with a 6x6 rollfilm back

See if you can get a few film holders (DDS) thrown in, then you're all set to go shooting.

Zygomorph · Dec 27, 2011

I'll be sure to ask. I actually have some 4x5 portra 160nc in the freezer from way back too... I was putting it in the back of a defunct Polaroid 800. Hey! I even have a changing bag. Can't wait.

Zygomorph · Dec 27, 2011

PS Paul: what do you mean by "DDS"?

Paul Howell · Dec 28, 2011

Zygomorph said:
Thanks for all the helpful advice! I am thinking that I won't need super-duper movements, so I have actually contacted someone in the classifieds here about a Super Speed Graphic, which seems really dope! It also comes with a 6x6 rollfilm back, which seems comforting somehow...

If you buy the Super Speed you may want to consider looking for a 6X9 back. The 6X9 is a 1/3rd larger than a 6X6, I find the format useful for landscapes. In addition to 4X5 I also shoot 6x6 with a Kowa but for landscape I also shoot with a Mamyia Universal. My Crown is lighter than the Universal, but I have an older Crown with a standard spring back so I still lug around the Mamyia. A Superspeed will provide more movement than a Crown of Speed, metal body rather than wood. If you can find cams for it you also change cams for differnt lens and couple to the rangfinder.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 28, 2011

A Tech IV is fine for what you want to do. John Sexton is a landscape photographer who has used a Technika for years (he's also recovering from a knee replacement, so maybe that's a reason to think about a lighter camera). While they are heavier than wooden field cameras, a Technika will also fold into a solid, rugged package that's quick to set up, which is another attraction.

The rangefinder option is one of the attractions of a Technika, so for $800, I'd want to have a cammed lens, and on a Tech IV, that means the top of the cam should have the serial number of the lens engraved on it, and the bottom of the cam should have the serial number of the body. Infinity stops should be set, and there should be a focus scale.

If the camera hasn't been serviced recently, it's not a bad idea to send it to Marflex for a general clean/lube/adjust, and when you send it, you can also have other lenses cammed to the camera.

paul_c5x4 · Dec 28, 2011

Zygomorph said:
PS Paul: what do you mean by "DDS"?

DDS = Double Dark Slide - a.k.a. Film Holder.

Zygomorph · Dec 30, 2011

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! There's a Super Speed Graphic with a 6x7 roll film holder on its way, plus some goodies thanks to apug user bwphoto.

Basically, I realized that I really don't have a lot of money and that the Graphic was going to be able to logically extend what I've already been doing in 6x6 just fine for a comfortable price. By the way, those example photos in my first post are, in fact, mine. The whole tumblr blog is mine, in case you want to follow my exploration of the "gay landscape." http://granary.tumblr.com

Paul_C5x4: In fact, it feels so much more natural for me to compose with a rectangular format that I have challenged myself to compose almost entirely in squares (or, less successfully, DIAMONDS... "lozenges" if you want to be fancy) for the past year. I'm in the midst of editing through 60 or 70 rolls right now, a handful of which are scattered throughout my inscrutable blog.

! john

paul_c5x4 · Dec 30, 2011

Zygomorph said:
Basically, I realized that I really don't have a lot of money and that the Graphic was going to be able to logically extend what I've already been doing in 6x6 just fine for a comfortable price.

One thing you will very quickly find out is that LF is not cheap

It won't be long before you start lusting after that SuperFandango lens for the larger image circle. Then you'll want something a bit longer for those tight shots.... Not forgetting all the film that you will burn through after making all those silly mistakes. i.e.:

Pulling the dark slide out nearest the ground glass.

Pulling the right dark slide while the shutter is open.

Loading film the wrong way round.

Forgetting to flip the dark slide and end up with multiple exposures on one sheet.

Along with plenty of other mistakes that you will undoubtly make along the way

Zygomorph · Dec 31, 2011

Oh, like leaving the lenscap on my rangefinder?

But really, I understand expensive investments. I freelance as an audio engineer and cellist. NOT CHEAP. But if you're good enough at them people will pay you to like, go to Australia to take pictures AND play the cello.

However, I must say that I've never really succumbed to GAS if I need a bigger image circle then you can be assured it's for a VERY good reason. For example: the fine art photographers I admire the most all use large format; and they also happen to break even now and then. And a lucky few have photos worth millions and which have changed the visual culture of a generation at least. See? Practical.

Help! Advice! And so forth.

Zygomorph

JBrunner

Moderator

Mark_S

Zygomorph

paul_c5x4

Neanderman

tony lockerbie

Brian C. Miller

Paul Howell

Zygomorph

Brian C. Miller

Zygomorph

Dan Fromm

paul_c5x4

Zygomorph

Zygomorph

Paul Howell

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

paul_c5x4

Zygomorph

paul_c5x4

Zygomorph

Help! Advice! And so forth.

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency