Help a beginner with a decision about an enlarger

Francesco_from_Rome · Aug 31, 2014

Hi, I'm a new user of the forum. This is my introduction post: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I am considering to set up a dark rook and I have found a complete darkroom for about 300 euros. The enlarger is a durst m370 with a rodenstock lens. The point is that, as far as I understand, this is good for 135 film. I would like, sooner or later, to move up to medium format film.
Would it be still possible, now in 2014, to adapt this enlarger? Would it be economically sensible or I would end up spending much more? Would the result be useful or it would always be sub-par? I have absolutely zero experience with enlargers: is a MF enlarger too complex/unwieldy for a beginner (and so I could take this one to learn the basics?)

Or should I consider other brands, maybe which haven't discontinued their line (like, unfortunately, Durst has)?

Please forgive me if this is a question asked 1,000 times: I have searched (and found) several topics on this but I didn't find an answer to my doubts.

Francesco

bvy · Aug 31, 2014

300 Euros (~$400) seems high for any small enlarger -- much less one that doesn't readily do medium format. I'm not familiar with this enlarger, but a bit of reading tells me that you need a conversion kit to get it to do medium format. Sounds like a lot of trouble, not to mention more money. I would shop around.

Rick A · Aug 31, 2014

I'm sure that the price seems reasonable for Europe, just make sure the enlarger is capable of being used with larger format film. Most only go to 6x6, so make sure the machine you choose will cover which ever format you want, 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9.

Francesco_from_Rome · Aug 31, 2014

I must add (Sorry for not doing it sooner) that the 300 euros comprise all the darkroom equipment beyond the enlarger. So I think that we're talking some 50-70 euros for that stuff (which I need) and the enlarger takes up the rest (230-250 euros).

My concern is with medium format. The conversion kit which you mention (I think it should be called the lidiset 67): I have no idea if the resulting modified enlarger is a fully functional one or if it remains a 135 enlarger which "fakes" to work with MF. Also, I am unsure about how easy is to find this kit, a search on ebay doesn't seem promising. But I have no data points to compare for other enlargers, so maybe it's par for the course....

On the other hand, I still don't have a MF camera (and I will have to convince my better half about that).

In the meanwhile, thanks for your reply!

Francesco_from_Rome · Aug 31, 2014

Thanks. The price doesn't seem unreasonable, when comparing with other ebay listings. But MF would require an adapter of some sort and I am not sure that it will work properly even after that. Thanks for your reply (6x7 is my present goal).

ic-racer · Aug 31, 2014

I have a 6x7cm Phillips enlarger just sitting here looking for a home. I checked FedEx International and the shipping to Italy from US is about $239.00 US for "Economy" transport.

mgb74 · Aug 31, 2014

If you think you want to enlarge from 6x7, I would suggest getting a compatible enlarger right away. I would not want to depend on finding conversion kits or whatever later. Alternatively, buy a 35mm only enlarger now and plan on selling it later (but enlarger could be a hard sell). In general, is safer and cheaper to buy an enlarger with all it's accessories (lensboards, negative carriers, etc) than to buy the enlarger and then the accessories.

Make sure you choose a brand that's common in Italy (or at least the EU) for availability of parts or accessories.. For example, Omega enlargers are very common here, but not in Europe.

230 Euros is about US$300. That seems very high for a used b/w 35mm enlarger (short of a Focomat) - at least here in US. But every geographic market is different.

Rodenstock made lenses that range from OK to great. Basically, lenses that end with "ar" (Rodenstock Rogonar) are just OK. Those that end with "on" (Rodenstock Rodagon) are good. Those with "APO" in the name are even better.

bvy · Aug 31, 2014

ic-racer said:
I have a 6x7cm Phillips enlarger just sitting here looking for a home. I checked FedEx International and the shipping to Italy from US is about $239.00 US for "Economy" transport.

Very generous. Problem solved, I'd say...

Francesco_from_Rome · Aug 31, 2014

bvy said:
Very generous. Problem solved, I'd say...

I already wrote to ic-racer. I had seen that APUG was a special place but I didn't imagine how much!

ic-racer · Aug 31, 2014

Ok here is the deal.

My father bought a Phillips enlarger at a garage sale for $30 and gave it to me, knowing I like these things.
However, I already have five enlargers!
Also, my father unsuspectedly purchased the enlarger with NO WORKING POWER SUPPLY!
So, now I'm stuck with the enlarger.
I have always wanted to help someone in Europe get an enlarger, because, in the USA home developing of film was a relatively common pastime. Many enlargers were made in the USA and many people have basements and attics to store old stuff. So we have this situation where enlargers are sold or thrown away.
But, giving a stranger a 'deal' on things these days usually winds up making one look like a fool when that person turns around and "Flips" the item on ebay to make money at your expense.

Putting all that aside, I doubt someone that pays the $$ to have an enlarger shipped to Italy is going to try to make money on it at my expense.

So, this the my special APUG good deed. I'll fix the enlarger, make it in good working order and only charge for my cost on the parts to fix it (possible new bulbs and the new power supply). I suspect this will be about $50. From there I'll pack it up and send it off if the shipping costs can be covered.

Roger Cole · Aug 31, 2014

Get an enlarger capable of handling the largest size you expect to ever use, right from the start. If you have room and happen to find one, get a 4x5 enlarger even if you don't think you ever want to shoot 4x5. For one thing, you might change your mind. For another, the larger enlarger will be much sturdier.

That Phillips 6x7 should be a good machine and looks like a great deal.

Francesco_from_Rome · Aug 31, 2014

IC-racer, You got a couple of private messages in your inbox.

nostalgix · Sep 1, 2014

I am having similar beginner problems. And I got the Durst 370 BW enlarger from a friend who used to use it years ago.
But as Francesco mentioned it's only for 35mm film and I also shoot on 6x6.
So I got an very old Teufel enlarger. I don't know if those are known outside of Germany. But it seems that the stage is not in the best condition and it is hard to adjust the film strip on it. As the Teufel enlargers are old and not too common I am now on the hunt for another one to have spare parts and maybe modify the stage for the film and stuff like that. The only one I found so far came without any stage.
I think the difficult thing about choosing an enlarger is too guess or know what the possibilities are with which one. For example the stage from the Durst 370 is made of plastic and so it's not the best to modify it for printing nice frames.

Alex Muir · Sep 1, 2014

madhatter said:
I am having similar beginner problems. And I got the Durst 370 BW enlarger from a friend who used to use it years ago.
But as Francesco mentioned it's only for 35mm film and I also shoot on 6x6.
So I got an very old Teufel enlarger. I don't know if those are known outside of Germany. But it seems that the stage is not in the best condition and it is hard to adjust the film strip on it. As the Teufel enlargers are old and not too common I am now on the hunt for another one to have spare parts and maybe modify the stage for the film and stuff like that. The only one I found so far came without any stage.
I think the difficult thing about choosing an enlarger is too guess or know what the possibilities are with which one. For example the stage from the Durst 370 is made of plastic and so it's not the best to modify it for printing nice frames.

Durst M601 does 35mm and 6x6. It has a metal negative carrier which has masks and glasses, or can take metal inserts for 6x6, 6x4.5, 35mm and smaller sizes. It uses a common 75 or 150W ES lamp. It is easy to fit Ilford MG filters under the lens. This enlarger is inexpensive and should be quite common in Europe. There are certainly plenty in the UK. I have had mine more than 10 years. It was old then, but still works very well. It is an older model than the 370, and more robust.
Alex.

Sirius Glass · Sep 1, 2014

I found an enlarger on Craig's List. You may have something like that locally. I was looking for a MF enlarger and found the same type of enlarger that I had used at Kodak. It was a 4"x5" enlarger which turned out to be a good thing because I got infected by G.A.S. [Gadget Acquisition Syndrome] by accessing the APUG website. The MF enlargers are no more complex than the 35mm enlargers. If you have the space and can find a 4"x5" enlarger I would recommend getting it. Even if you never use 4"x5" film, the 4"x5" enlarge will let you enlarge 6x6, 6x7, 6x9 ...

John Koehrer · Sep 1, 2014

What's common in the EU?
There's no real reason to recommend equipment available in the US, it'll cost a small fortune to ship & pay the duties on them.
LPL/Saunders were available in the US and should be relatively available in the EU. Durst obviously and Meopta.
Parts/accessories can be a little uncommon, so be aware of that.
Durst is a very well made device, mostly cast aluminum so should be more durable. They had at least one model that would do up to a 6X9 negative.
You can alway print 35 if you have the larger 6X6/6X9 condenser set but not the other way around.

pdeeh · Sep 1, 2014

It does seem a lot for a used enlarger that won't do 6x7 - It's certainly not "reasonable for Europe"

I have three now, two as backup and my main Kaiser 6002. I got the Kaiser for nothing from Freecycle and the other two for ~€30 (thirty) from ebay.

nostalgix · Sep 1, 2014

Alex Muir said:
Durst M601 does 35mm and 6x6. It has a metal negative carrier which has masks and glasses, or can take metal inserts for 6x6, 6x4.5, 35mm and smaller sizes. It uses a common 75 or 150W ES lamp. It is easy to fit Ilford MG filters under the lens.

Thank you, Alex. I was hoping for an information like that. I came across lots of M601 but never gave a thought because of the bad M370 and was expecting similar negative carriers.

Thank you!

Christopher Nisperos · Sep 1, 2014

Enlargers can be found cheap in Europe . . .

pdeeh said:
It does seem a lot for a used enlarger that won't do 6x7 - It's certainly not "reasonable for Europe"

I have three now, two as backup and my main Kaiser 6002. I got the Kaiser for nothing from Freecycle and the other two for ~30 (thirty) from ebay.

Pdeeh is right: I live in Europe too (France), and that price is really high. Just now, I browsed fleabay.de and in about 30 seconds I found TWO Durst M601's which as another poster rightly points out, is sturdier than the little M370 and will handle formats up to 6x6cm for 149 euros and 175 euros (not including shipping from Germany to Italy ... or maybe you could drive over and pick them up! There are other low cost options, too. You are welcome to contact me privately if you need more information about local sources (there's a French website with good prices, too). I might even have something for you myself, if I'm not too lazy to pack it up and haul it to the post office.

Francesco_from_Rome · Sep 2, 2014

Christopher Nisperos said:
Pdeeh is right: I live in Europe too (France), and that price is really high. Just now, I browsed fleabay.de and in about 30 seconds I found TWO Durst M601's which as another poster rightly points out, is sturdier than the little M370 and will handle formats up to 6x6cm for 149 euros and 175 euros (not including shipping from Germany to Italy ... or maybe you could drive over and pick them up! There are other low cost options, too. You are welcome to contact me privately if you need more information about local sources (there's a French website with good prices, too). I might even have something for you myself, if I'm not too lazy to pack it up and haul it to the post office.

Hey, what can I say, I'm amazed. My searching skills on ebay must be really bad, since all the offers I found were in the neighborhood of 300 euros and only up to 35mm film. I have to say that I've never bought anything on ebay so I can't say to have the hang of it... It seems that I have to learn something about that, besides learning analog photography.

pdeeh · Sep 2, 2014

Freecycle Roma: https://groups.freecycle.org/group/romaitaly/description

MartinP · Sep 2, 2014

That price is very high. Conversion kits and spare parts are impossible to find or extremely expensive. The enlarger does not do what you want. In summary, there is no reason to want to buy that enlarger.

You can most likely find another Durst of the right model (the M6** series for example) which could do what you want. However, all Durst parts are expensive, neg carriers, condensers etc. Alternatives may include the Philips and Kaiser models (most for under 100 euros), the Leitz enlargers are probably too costly. Meopta Opemus enlargers are cheap and cheerful (made from cast alloy, not tin sheets, and are very strong) but most only go to 6x6. There is another Meopta model that does to 6x9 but it is difficult to find. If you go to the UK you might find a De Vere 203, but those are unlikely to be found in Italy I suppose.

Think carefully if you need a condenser-head or a colour-head as that is another main split in enlarger design, along with format. If you find a 4x5 enlarger with all the neg-carriers and condensers that you need (very important), then that is also a very good option and would likely still be cheaper than the 35mm machine you originally looked at.

baachitraka · Sep 2, 2014

You may get Durst for cheaper price. I paid Euro 45 for Durst M600 including one good lens and one not so good lens.

Help a beginner with a decision about an enlarger

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