Help... 85% of photos out of focus/blurry on Mamiya 645pro 80mm f1.9

Qiuhong · Jun 8, 2023

(http://imgur.com/a/WydHxy7)
my failed photos along with some sharp ones. some shot at f1.9 some at smaller aperture.

This is really discouraging, shot 4 rolls and almost all of them are blurry, I'm using a crappy and dark split image focusing screen from ebay bc the camera came with a blank one, I really took my time with each shot to nail the focus till it look right to my eye, I've been using f1.4 on my 35mm slr and focus the same way and I wouldn't miss focus this much.

I have some guesses,
1. I'm bad at focusing, though I'm confused bc some were shots with f4 and high shutter speed but was still out of focus..
2. the lens has some haze to it
3. the split image on the focusing screen is incorrect? when it lines up it's actually not in focus?
3. there's camera shake that's making the images blurry, ether from the camera itself or my shaky hands? tho the dark ones in this album I took with a tripod even..

Can someone help me with this, I really wanna love this camera..

Axelwik · Jun 8, 2023

When you replaced the focus screen was there a way to put it in upside-down? Focus on a faraway object at infinity - should be sharp at the infinity stop.

Also, what was the shutter speed, and were you hand holding it?

The lens doesn't seem to be hazy - if that were the case they'd still be in focus, but with low contrast.

Fast lenses are usually not at their best fully open, but not to the extent of being as soft as your photos.

Lots of variables.

AnselMortensen · Jun 8, 2023

Here are some possibilities:

1. Focusing screen not seated properly, installed incorrectly, or improper screen.

2. Film plane and ground glass are not in exact calibration for some reason...camera may have been dropped?
Maybe the mirror is not in the correct position.
Maybe lens has a loose element or mounting ring..take it off and shake it, listen for rattling.

3. You missed focus for some reason.
It happens.

4. Maybe there's a corrective diopter on the eyepiece that's throwing things off.

5. f8 on a medium format lens has less 'depth of field' than f8 on a 35mm camera lens, for instance.
f1.9 is a REALLY narrow plane of focus.

You might consider having it checked out by a competent repair person.

Sirius Glass · Jun 8, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
Here are some possibilities:

1. Focusing screen not seated properly, installed incorrectly, or improper screen.

2. Film plane and ground glass are not in exact calibration for some reason...camera may have been dropped?
Maybe the mirror is not in the correct position.
Maybe lens has a loose element or mounting ring..take it off and shake it, listen for rattling.

3. You missed focus for some reason.
It happens.

4. Maybe there's a corrective diopter on the eyepiece that's throwing things off.

5. f8 on a medium format lens has less 'depth of field' than f8 on a 35mm camera lens, for instance.
f1.9 is a REALLY narrow plane of focus.

You might consider having it checked out by a competent repair person.

If you want to save time and frustration, get the camera CLA'd. Since you live in NYC, there must be camera repair people nearby. Consider calling first then sending to KEH.com.

btaylor · Jun 8, 2023

It looks to me like you have two things going on, a focus calibration problem (film plane and ground glass not in agreement) and motion blur at low shutter speeds. In the closer portraits the plane of focus is several inches in front of the eyes. On one of them you can see her hair is blurred from camera motion as well as out of focus. You may have disturbed the film plane/ ground glass distance when you changed the viewing screen, or it may have been out of spec before. Check to be sure the non reflective side of the gg is facing the mirror, if it is not you may have found the problem. If is is installed correctly you will need a camera tech to sort it out. On the motion blur either know how slow a shutter speed you can hold steady and or use a tripod.

Rolleiflexible · Jun 8, 2023

These images are sharp, but not at the spot you want them to be sharp. Browsing through, it looks as if you've focused to a spot a foot or so in front of your subjects. And shooting with a very wide aperture compounds the error.

So, it's not the lens. It's not camera shake. It might be the camera, as others have said. But your description of how you focus makes me think it is a combination of how you focus, and a very thin DOF from shooting at f/4 and wider.

With medium format, you need to break yourself of the habit of relying on a split prism for focusing. Because your focal point will almost never be where the little circle is. And if you use it to focus then move the camera to reframe, you are guaranteed to goof the focus. Especially when you are shooting at f/4 and wider.

FWIW.

reddesert · Jun 8, 2023

I'm not sure what you mean by the camera came with a blank screen. Do you mean no focusing screen, or pure matte screen with no split image focus aid? It would be good to learn to focus on the pure matte screen. It's not really that hard once you get used to it and it can be very accurate. Rack the focus back and forth and watch the appearance of a sharp feature (point of light, edge, etc) as it goes in and out of focus.

I don't think it's possible to install a Mamiya 645 screen upside down, but you can check to make sure it's properly seated.

To begin to diagnose the problem, find a subject like a wall or fence and stand at an angle to it so the fence runs from near to far across the field of view (oblique to you). Say the near side is a few feet away, center is 8-10 feet away, far side is 15-20 feet away. Focus on some clear feature at the center, like a sign on the wall, or put a tape mark on the wall/fence at the focus point. Use a tripod. Use more than one f-stop, more than one lens and more than one focusing screen if you have them. Take notes of the setup for each exposure. Get the film developed and see where the point of focus is on the negative relative to where it you intended it to be.

MattKing · Jun 8, 2023

The mirror bumpers on the Mamiya 645 Super, Pro and Pro Tl bodies were designed in such a way that they would require replacement as part of the normal maintenance of cameras that received heavy professional use - there cameras were targeted at the wedding photography market. Not every scheduled maintenance - but sufficiently often to have once been a "normal" service.
Of course, most of these cameras haven't received that normal maintenance since that market went mostly to 35mm and then digital.
If the camera in question is focusing to the wrong plane, they would be a likely culprit.
I believe @Mamiya_Repair is one member here who has done that sort of maintenance work. And there is a cottage industry out there making and selling replacement bumpers.

greg zinselmeier · Jun 8, 2023

With a laser pointer/distance measure, find a distance that will also coincide with a distance on your lens. Put your camera on tripod use a cable release . Also mirror up. Turn your lens till the mark hits the actual distance to a wall that is parellel to the picture plane. Take photograph of objects at that plane of focus. Are they in focus when developed.

OAPOli · Jun 8, 2023

As @reddesert suggested you can try to diagnose the issue. Balance a rigid rule at an angle on a vertical plate. Note the length marking of the rule where it rests on the plate. Stick a sheet of paper (with a clear vertical line) on the plate and focus the camera on the line. Camera on a tripod, shoot at a few aperture values. On the scans you can find where the film was actually focused by checking which length marking on the rule is sharp. You'll be able to tell whether you have back or front focus, or some focus shift, if any.

Dave Faulkner · Jun 8, 2023

Mamiya 645s have an a lever that the mirror rests on when in shooting position. This lever is amazingly delicate and breaks after a time, causing this slight fuzziness in the focus. Nick Carver did a video on how to repair this, including a 3D printed schematic for the primary part (the arm the mirror rests on). I managed to purchase a ProTL with this issue and I was able to get the arm part via a 3D printer parts retailer. Unfortunately when the arm breaks it usually losses the spring as well, which is not so easy to replace. Here is Nick Carver's video:

Focus Error Fix for Mamiya 645 Pro
HTH

Radost · Jun 9, 2023

Hard to focus on that camera. But I love the results so much.

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

Axelwik said:
When you replaced the focus screen was there a way to put it in upside-down? Focus on a faraway object at infinity - should be sharp at the infinity stop.

Also, what was the shutter speed, and were you hand holding it?

The lens doesn't seem to be hazy - if that were the case they'd still be in focus, but with low contrast.

Fast lenses are usually not at their best fully open, but not to the extent of being as soft as your photos.

Lots of variables.

no upsdie down just one side, I'll check infinity, for speeds lower than 60 I used a tripod, day light ones were prob 250-1000

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
Here are some possibilities:

1. Focusing screen not seated properly, installed incorrectly, or improper screen.

2. Film plane and ground glass are not in exact calibration for some reason...camera may have been dropped?
Maybe the mirror is not in the correct position.
Maybe lens has a loose element or mounting ring..take it off and shake it, listen for rattling.

3. You missed focus for some reason.
It happens.

4. Maybe there's a corrective diopter on the eyepiece that's throwing things off.

5. f8 on a medium format lens has less 'depth of field' than f8 on a 35mm camera lens, for instance.
f1.9 is a REALLY narrow plane of focus.

You might consider having it checked out by a competent repair person.

Thank you

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
These images are sharp, but not at the spot you want them to be sharp. Browsing through, it looks as if you've focused to a spot a foot or so in front of your subjects. And shooting with a very wide aperture compounds the error.

So, it's not the lens. It's not camera shake. It might be the camera, as others have said. But your description of how you focus makes me think it is a combination of how you focus, and a very thin DOF from shooting at f/4 and wider.

With medium format, you need to break yourself of the habit of relying on a split prism for focusing. Because your focal point will almost never be where the little circle is. And if you use it to focus then move the camera to reframe, you are guaranteed to goof the focus. Especially when you are shooting at f/4 and wider.

FWIW.

Interesting point I didn't know that, I almost always focus by pointing the split image at the eyes and line things up, then i reframe slightly, are you saying that I should use the blank focusing screen instead and focus by looking at the whole picture? like hasselblad

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

reddesert said:
I'm not sure what you mean by the camera came with a blank screen. Do you mean no focusing screen, or pure matte screen with no split image focus aid? It would be good to learn to focus on the pure matte screen. It's not really that hard once you get used to it and it can be very accurate. Rack the focus back and forth and watch the appearance of a sharp feature (point of light, edge, etc) as it goes in and out of focus.

I don't think it's possible to install a Mamiya 645 screen upside down, but you can check to make sure it's properly seated.

To begin to diagnose the problem, find a subject like a wall or fence and stand at an angle to it so the fence runs from near to far across the field of view (oblique to you). Say the near side is a few feet away, center is 8-10 feet away, far side is 15-20 feet away. Focus on some clear feature at the center, like a sign on the wall, or put a tape mark on the wall/fence at the focus point. Use a tripod. Use more than one f-stop, more than one lens and more than one focusing screen if you have them. Take notes of the setup for each exposure. Get the film developed and see where the point of focus is on the negative relative to where it you intended it to be.

Yes, pure matte screen, I thought split image would be the most accurate, but I'll try with the matte one again (I think last time I tried it at F2.8 and I nailed all of them, but the model was super still as well) , Do you set a distance and move the camera back and forth to focus?

and you're right, it can't be placed upside down,

Cool method I might give it a try.

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

Dave Faulkner said:
Mamiya 645s have an a lever that the mirror rests on when in shooting position. This lever is amazingly delicate and breaks after a time, causing this slight fuzziness in the focus. Nick Carver did a video on how to repair this, including a 3D printed schematic for the primary part (the arm the mirror rests on). I managed to purchase a ProTL with this issue and I was able to get the arm part via a 3D printer parts retailer. Unfortunately when the arm breaks it usually losses the spring as well, which is not so easy to replace. Here is Nick Carver's video:

Focus Error Fix for Mamiya 645 Pro
HTH

This is super helpful! the plastic part did have hairline crack on it like in the video though it's all intact, I don't know how long it'll last, also the I found that the infinity focus is off too and the video explains it really well, thank you! Were you able to replace it yourself?

koraks · Jun 9, 2023

Qiuhong said:
I'm using a crappy and dark split image focusing screen from ebay

I replacing the screen in all likelihood the focus calibration was lost. Possibly due to tje replacement screen not exactly following the dimensions of the original Mamiya part.

The first thing to check is install the original screen and verify correct focusing. If that's OK, the camera is apparently in good working order and you've got a calibration issue with the replacement screen.

In my 645 the screen rests on 3 points which can be adjusted by screwing them upwards or downwards. Try to get the focus correct using this method first, as it's relatively non-invasive.

If the screen support screws don't offer sufficient adjustment leeway, there's an additional adjustment screw for the mirror itself, which is accessible after removing the leatherette on the side of the camera (left side when holding the camera facing forward, so in shooting position).

If this mirror adjustment screw is also insufficient, you likely have a mirror stop/rest mechanism problem as mentioned before.

I repeat: before assuming a defect and commencing repairs, verify the problem is not simply associated with the use of a non-original focus screen of the wrong thickness, and if calibration can fix the issue.

PS: you can verify screen adjustment by placing a piece of ground glass or even plastic on the film plane (with the back open) and then verify focus between the film plane and focus screen by using the bulb shutter setting. Place the camera on a tripod for this with a view on some high-contrast details in preferably both close distance (2 meters) and close to infinity so you can verify proper focus both short and long distance.

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

I changed it back to a blank matte screen that it came with and the infinity focus is off, tho I went back to see my last couple rolls I shot and realized the focus was fine with the blank matte screen so now I'm confused, should i calibrate the focus?

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

Update (still need help..):

The mirror lever is intact and not loose but has very small hairline crack

I did some focus testing with both 80mm 1.9 and 50mm 2.8 lens and the origianl mamiya blank matte focusing screen

infinity: when turned to ifinity, what's in the focus in the viewfinder is actually "further than infinity, when I turn the focus ring back a bit, it's then in focus. For example, on 80mm 1.9, when set to 5 meter it's actually infinity.

close object: I put an object exactly a meter away from the film plane, and focused it through viewfinder, the reading says about 80cm which is much closer, then i used bulb mold and put a focusing screen on the film plane and turned the focusing ring till whatever's showing on the glass is in focus, the reading is fairly accute but still maybe a tiny bit off, much more accute than looking through the view finder.

The ground glass/plastic method shows that the focus on the film plane is much more accurate than through the viewfinder

correction: at both close distance and infinity the camera back focuses

I also went to check the previous rolls I shot with the 50 2.8 and original plain screen before switching to ebay screen and everything seemed to be sharp so now I'm not sure if it actually needs calibrating....

koraks · Jun 9, 2023

Inconsistencies between infinity and close focus calibration in a camera like this in my experience track down to two possibilities:

1: Focus screen or mirror is slightly tilted and the infinity and close focus points being compared are in different parts of the image. The resulting Scheimpflug-effect results in a deviation in seemingly opposite directions. With the m645 system it's worth checking if the mirror flips back entirely in the right spot; be sure to verify that the focus screen plane image has the same focus all across the image area. If there are deviations, either the mirror doesn't flip back into the right spot, or the focus screen is not perfectly horizontal. The latter can be adjusted with the focus screen screws.

2: A combined effect of a mis-assembled focus helicoid on the lens used and a calibration problem in the camera. This is easily eliminated by checking with a lens of known-good construction. Since you're apparently checked two lenses and there weren't any issues before, I assume that this isn't the problem.

So TL;DR - first check the focus consistency across the image on the focus screen. There's a good chance you'll see that e.g. the top left corner has a deviation in one direction (e.g. front focus) while the opposite corner shows a deviation in the other direction (back focus).

Qiuhong · Jun 9, 2023

koraks said:
infinity and close focus points being compared are in different parts of the image

I just picked an object and put it in the middle of the frame and looked at the middle since there's no split image, also I just quickly pointed the camera at a poster striaght on in close distance and the focus seem to be all sharp across the frame,

Rolleiflexible · Jun 9, 2023

Qiuhong said:
Interesting point I didn't know that, I almost always focus by pointing the split image at the eyes and line things up, then i reframe slightly, are you saying that I should use the blank focusing screen instead and focus by looking at the whole picture? like hasselblad

Yes. Medium format requires a different approach from 35mm. DOF is much thinner, especially when shooting at wide apertures. (At f/4, it is a challenge to keep both eyes in focus in a MF portrait.) I almost never shoot with an aperture wider than f/5.6 -- if you miss focus by even a millimeter wide-open, it will ruin the image.

Focusing with a center spot before framing is a habit that you must break, *especially* if shooting medium format at wide apertures. Think about the geometry. The focal plane is basically perpendicular to the line of sight. When you focus with a center spot on a subject's eye, then rotate the camera to put the subject off-center, the focal point will land on the subject's ear. At f/4 this will be painfully obvious.

So, yes, my advice is to reinstall the screen without the center spot, and teach yourself how to see focus on the screen without the crutch of a center spot. It might not solve your problem. You still might have camera issues, even after reinstalling the original screen. But you will rule out user error and be a better photographer for it.

Rick A · Jun 9, 2023

If you are able to remove the film back(or the insert) put some frosted cellophane tape (or waxed paper) across the film plane and open the shutter (raising the mirror) to project an image onto the tape. check focus at minimum distance (measured) to see if the image is in focus. Then lower the mirror and check the focus on the focus screen, do they match? If they match, repeat procedure at infinity. If the film plane and focus screen match, the issue is in the lens, if they don't agree, the issue is the mirror.

Cholentpot · Jun 9, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
Yes. Medium format requires a different approach from 35mm. DOF is much thinner, especially when shooting at wide apertures. (At f/4, it is a challenge to keep both eyes in focus in a MF portrait.) I almost never shoot with an aperture wider than f/5.6 -- if you miss focus by even a millimeter wide-open, it will ruin the image.

Focusing with a center spot before framing is a habit that you must break, *especially* if shooting medium format at wide apertures. Think about the geometry. The focal plane is basically perpendicular to the line of sight. When you focus with a center spot on a subject's eye, then rotate the camera to put the subject off-center, the focal point will land on the subject's ear. At f/4 this will be painfully obvious.

So, yes, my advice is to reinstall the screen without the center spot, and teach yourself how to see focus on the screen without the crutch of a center spot. It might not solve your problem. You still might have camera issues, even after reinstalling the original screen. But you will rule out user error and be a better photographer for it.

I'm going to agree with this.

Focus and recompose does not generally work with medium format. I rarely shoot below f/4 as I've learned I'm not going to get the focus where I want unless I really pay attention and take my time. If using a waist level finder you need to use a magnifier.

Help... 85% of photos out of focus/blurry on Mamiya 645pro 80mm f1.9

Qiuhong

Axelwik

AnselMortensen

Sirius Glass

btaylor

Rolleiflexible

reddesert

MattKing

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greg zinselmeier

OAPOli

Dave Faulkner

Radost

Qiuhong

Qiuhong

Qiuhong

Qiuhong

Qiuhong

koraks

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Qiuhong

Qiuhong

koraks

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Qiuhong

Rolleiflexible

Rick A

Cholentpot

Help... 85% of photos out of focus/blurry on Mamiya 645pro 80mm f1.9

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