Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

TheToadMen · Apr 30, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
And non-masked color will set color film back 100 years!

PE

Photo Engineer · Apr 30, 2015

AgX said:
The first film with integrated colour masking was introduced in 1948.

Furthermore it has been stated that image-dye deficencies can be coped by other means than masking too. Though I can't comment on that.

I am including the loss in the engineered in quality gained in the early years of photography. But that was just a comment anyhow to emphasize the almost total loss of all that has been done.

And, color negative films, I find, are easy to scan!

PE

jamie young · Apr 30, 2015

I'm just noticing this thread now. I have a 70 mm panoramic camera and would love to continue using it with 70mm color negative film. I'm not sure who to source the agfa c41 film from, and what would be the differences between masked and unmasked films
Thanks, Jamie Young

FILM Ferrania · Apr 30, 2015

Nzoomed said:
Also Solaris was a great negative stock, hopefully we will see that reintroduced too

Solaris is most certainly on the list to be reintroduced - perhaps just as it was, but likely with some improvements.

FILM Ferrania · Apr 30, 2015

Nzoomed said:
Yes i would have assumed so too, which im wondering how Ferrania will work around this, perhaps Dave can shed some light on this, but perhaps im overlooking the point that this is what will be achieved with the wider drying tunnel taken out of big boy?
This would essentially mean that most of the old LRF coater will be eventually replaced if this is the case, unless the LRF coater already has wider cabinets and rollers, which the photos do seem to suggest are alot wider than 20cm.

According to what I've been told so far, the head in our precision coater can be larger without needing to rebuild the rest of the machine. There are limits of course - and it will never be as wide as the Big Boy coater was.

The general plan is thus:
In our first phase, we will be making film in discreet batches, only running the coater for a few days at a time then shifting our team to other operations, like preparing chemistry for the next batch.
Once that capacity has been maxed out, we will go into continuous production, but with only one 8-hour shift. This will require the bigger drying tunnel, as well as specialists we will have to find and train.
Once THAT capacity has been maxed, we will add a second shift.
Only after we are maxing out this scenario will we consider commissioning a larger head - unless simply adding a third shift meets our needs.

These scenarios take us several years into the future and we feel it's critical that we don't overreach and put ourselves in danger of becoming too large until the overall film market has found its equilibrium and our sales are strong enough to warrant the additional investment.

FILM Ferrania · Apr 30, 2015

SLVR said:
Hello Dave,

I apologize if this has been answered before but I understand that it's Ferrania's long term plan to produce E6 chemistry.

At this moment my local lab has been forced to shut down E6 processing because their machine was configured for a 7 stage development process. Chemistry for such a process is unavailable I'm told and that only 3 stage kits remain and these machines can't be reconfigured for a 3 stage process.

We have small local outfits that are popping up to handle some E6 but it's not like it was prior to the discontinuation of these 7 stage kits.

Will Ferrania be producing both 7 stage chemistry for commercial applications as well as 3 stage kits for home development?

Thank you

I can't speak to 7-stage or 3-stage because I honestly don't know enough about the development process and I have not discussed this directly with the factory team.

DIY kits are not currently on our radar, primarily because shipping chemicals out of Italy to global destinations is a legal and logistical problem we are not yet ready to even think about.

I can say, however, that our plan is to support existing labs as a first priority. As you can see here - Dead Link Removed - our informal outreach has turned up hundreds of labs around the world who still process E6 and we encourage everyone to use them.

europanorama · May 1, 2015

jamie young said:
I'm just noticing this thread now. I have a 70 mm panoramic camera and would love to continue using it with 70mm color negative film. I'm not sure who to source the agfa c41 film from, and what would be the differences between masked and unmasked films
Thanks, Jamie Young

we or i discussed it endless times over the years. as you know i have the same roundshot. there is also a pdf or specifications. i neednt know if someone does not know. i know in switzerland scanatron can deliver officially. so no problem. only when not in stock. so i could get from nearby germany or france.

europanorama · May 1, 2015

AgX said:
One argument when introducing unmasked colour films was just that it was better to scan due to reduced D-max.

Plus better if not best b+w-extraction. have not done yet. dont have these x100 and x400 films by agfa-gevaert mortsel belgium.

Photo Engineer · May 1, 2015

I'll say it again more clearly. A mask has little to no effect on a scan when the scan is done properly. This includes the scan options and the scan software.

PE

Nzoomed · May 1, 2015

FILM Ferrania said:
Solaris is most certainly on the list to be reintroduced - perhaps just as it was, but likely with some improvements.

Awesome news!

I think Solaris will eventually be a good negative stock for future film use.
I think that motion picture films could also be worked off this formula if Kodak ever ditches their Vision line of stocks.

Look forward to getting my first rolls of FerraniaChrome in the mail!

cmacd123 · May 4, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
I'll say it again more clearly. A mask has little to no effect on a scan when the scan is done properly.

The only process flow where the Mask can be an issue is attempting to optically print a colour Negative on regular Blue sensitive Black and white paper. In that case the mask DOes act as a safelight, and makes for long exposures. BUT the blue sensitive paper will look funny anyway, like (the reverse of) taking an original photo on a blue sensitive film like Release positive 5302.

On any normal scanner, the mask is merely a slight amount of extra density, having no more effect than the grey dye in B&W film base.

AgX · May 5, 2015

cmacd123 said:
The only process flow where the Mask can be an issue is attempting to optically print a colour Negative on regular Blue sensitive Black and white paper. In that case the mask DOes act as a safelight, and makes for long exposures. BUT the blue sensitive paper will look funny anyway, like (the reverse of) taking an original photo on a blue sensitive film like Release positive 5302.

That was the reason why Maco promoted their unmasked colour film as universal film for colour and b&w.
Overlooking (or neglecting) that for proper results one would have to use panchromatic b&w paper.

Xmas · May 5, 2015

AgX said:
That was the reason why Maco promoted their unmasked colour film as universal film for colour and b&w.
Overlooking (or neglecting) that for proper results one would have to use panchromatic b&w paper.

You can still get colour paper so you need the mask.
PE is correct c41 or ecn is easy to scan.

AgX · May 5, 2015

You can imitate a mask if necessary for that paper.

cmacd123 · May 5, 2015

AgX said:
You can imitate a mask if necessary for that paper.

while you can correct for the overall colour of the mask, either by adjusting the filter pack or changing the timing of the 3 colours on an additive printer, you don't get the anti colour aliasing results that the mask provides, so you will get some colour distortion if using an Unmasked film.

Photo Engineer · May 5, 2015

Bingo!

europanorama · May 6, 2015

AgX said:
That was the reason why Maco promoted their unmasked colour film as universal film for colour and b&w.
Overlooking (or neglecting) that for proper results one would have to use panchromatic b&w paper.

macos Digibase 200 IS agfa avicolor x-100 despite the higher ISO.
Nobody else is producing such a film.

Xmas · May 6, 2015

You still get less distortion scanning and gilee printing with masked film.

flavio81 · May 6, 2015

cmacd123 said:
while you can correct for the overall colour of the mask, either by adjusting the filter pack or changing the timing of the 3 colours on an additive printer, you don't get the anti colour aliasing results that the mask provides, so you will get some colour distortion if using an Unmasked film.

That was my understanding as well, and one of the reasons color negative film has better (= more neutral) colors than color reversal films.

Photo Engineer · May 6, 2015

You are all correct about the benefits of a mask.

A mask in C41 films is a positive color image that corrects for any incorrect properties in the negative dye image. It is not just a colored layer added to the Dmin.

PE

Nzoomed · May 6, 2015

Regarding masks, i always thought it was required for printing onto photographic paper to counter adjust the blue shift that the photographic paper was sensitive to?

AgX · May 7, 2015

A colour mask is a way to compensate for the deficiencies inherit to chromogenic image-forming dyes in films and papers. Since the late 40s there are automatic masks incorparated into negative films. A concept that by time had been taken over one way or the other for most colour negative films.

This is basic knowledge.
You find this described in any text book on the chemistry behind colour photography.

Photo Engineer · May 7, 2015

Nzoomed said:
Regarding masks, i always thought it was required for printing onto photographic paper to counter adjust the blue shift that the photographic paper was sensitive to?

It merely eliminates the need for a yellow filter layer such as is used in film. But in reality, the speeds of the layers are adjusted for the overall blue sensitivity and that is controlled more by the filter pack than the mask.

PE

1L6E6VHF · May 8, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
You are all correct about the benefits of a mask.

A mask in C41 films is a positive color image that corrects for any incorrect properties in the negative dye image. It is not just a colored layer added to the Dmin.

PE

Is this to say that the color negative film is passed under a blue light after it is coated and before it is cut and spooled?

And why was it possible to make the curves of the dyes line up properly for color reversal films, but not color negative?

(Not questioning the need for the mask by any means, just want to know how the chemistry and molecular physics differed)

Xmas · May 8, 2015

1L6E6VHF said:
Is this to say that the color negative film is passed under a blue light after it is coated and before it is cut and spooled?
[\QUOTE]
No

The mask reduces the errors in the dye layers that are masked.

Slide films have to do without the correction. Cine neg film is masked but the print film which is negative is unmasked.

You can get camera negative film without masks if you want.

http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24780

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