Heat and cameras- shutter goes bad?

[Dan Daniel]

I wonder what experiences people have had with high heat affecting mechanical camera operation. I recently got back in a camera where someone said that it worked fine in 'regular' temperatures- 70-80F/20-25C. But in recent shooting above 90F/33C, he had many blank frames as if the shutter didn't fire.

This is a Kodak Medalist where the shutter release mechanism and the wind release mechanism are separate, and both make a distinct click. So it is recurring problem with unadjusted Medalists to get blank frames as people hear a click but it was only the wind releasing, not the shutter.

When I got the camera in, everything was fine. Shutter release and wind release synced, shutter fired smoothly, etc. I was wondering, then remembered the heat issue. So I put the camera in a box and sat it out in my natural outdoor sauna in the low 90s. After an hour, I noticed the shutter jittering during cocking and exposing one tip that was torn. And then it didn't fire a few times. I didn't experience the wind and shutter release going out of sync.

Attached is a photo of the shutter blades. As you can see, one rather torn tip. And one well-dented tip. I assume that this is the cause of the problems. Not sure if the blades simply failed over time, if I nicked them in re-assembly, or what. And then they ate each other up more in use?

Anyway, the real question is what have people noticed in equipment failures or changed operation in higher heats? Any equipment destruction? Or do you think that heat simply makes more obvious some existing conditions? And any approaches to preparing a camera for temperatures in the 90/33 plus range? Less lube. different lubes? I know that there are low temp greases out there.

Thanks.

 

[Saganich]

Last month the 3rd avenue swing bridge couldn't close due to heat expansion of steel. They had to hose it down for hours with cool water. So I expect certain metals will expand in the high heat and humidity.

 

[BrianShaw]

90 degree temperatures are not really an extreme WRT metal and high-quality lubricants. For some of us that's just a normal summer day and while it is "desert", it is not really considered tropical. The high-temp spec on oils/greases used on cameras is much higher... like well into in the 130's (from memory; I'd have to look up the spec sheets to be more accurate).

This shutter blades are a mess. YIKES. They sure did seem to eat each other up. I've never seen shutter blades fail due to too much or too little lubricant, not temperature. Something else must be going on to cause you that grief.

My only experience with temperature-realated camera failure has been in winter temps, which I would say were absolutely frigid and you'd say were fairly normal. LOL; its a matter of perspective.

EDIT: apparently I did not download the spec sheets I thought I did, but this is from a Nye article on damping grease. Similar concept, but makes me wonder about cameras left in cars during those hot Summer days where the car interior temp can rise to absolutely Hell-like conditions: Synthetic hydrocarbon greases are suitable for -40°C to 125°C. Silicone-based damping greases damp at room temperature and are still functional at -60°C and +200°C.

 

[4season]

The ambient temperature doesn't seem too extreme, but all bets are off if the camera was left in a car, or the lens was pointed towards the sun for a period of time.

 

[neilt3]

At temperatures up to the point I won't go out in them , mechanical cameras work fine .
Better in fact as it softens the grease!
It's the cold that gives some of my Mamiya TLRs grief as they need a service.
I should say I'm in the UK , so your idea of hot might be different than mine.
25°C is unpleasant to me .
I'd rather it were cold as it's easier to stay warm , than cool down when it's hot .

 

[Don_ih]

Synthetic hydrocarbon greases are suitable for -40°C to 125°C. Silicone-based damping greases damp at room temperature and are still functional at -60°C and +200°C.

But what happens to the viscosity as the temperature rises? I'd expect, as a camera heats up, the grease and oil that's supposed to be one location more freely flows to a new, more troublesome location.

 

[BrianShaw]

But what happens to the viscosity as the temperature rises? I'd expect, as a camera heats up, the grease and oil that's supposed to be one location more freely flows to a new, more troublesome location.

Oil/grease migartion is a real concern but that's what the product specification sheets provide knowledge about. Migration is not the same for all oils and greases, and generalization doesn't necessarily work.

From the 90 degree F, perspective, I can attest from vast experience to the fact that it is within the realm of reasonable for well- and properly-maintained camera equuipment. 90 is uncomfortable but, frankly, just not that hot. Really hot starts at 100.

 

[Kino]

I would also have to assume age plays a great deal in the above equation.

Metal fatigue and hairline fractures that are relatively stable at lower temperatures could cause the blades to expand in uneven patterns and set up interference where none existed before.

The Medalist is a fairly senior camera and was largely produced in the WWII and the immediate Post WWII era, so who's to say if some of those shutter blades weren't entirely up to specification when produced?

All pure speculation, but something to consider.

On a side note, I have a pristine Nikon F5 that is a paperweight because someone left it in a car in the desert. I'll bet the main body fuse, which is buried deep in the bowels of the camera was melted in two, or the circuit boards re-flowed under the intense heat. Not a mechanical problem but still a heat related issue...

 

[BrianShaw]

Definitely...

How hot does a car get in the sun? Here's why heat can be so deadly in a parked car.

All it takes is a few minutes for the temperature in cars to hit triple digits, even when it's 80 degrees Fahrenheit outside.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[reddesert]

I live in a hot place and I don't like storing cameras etc outside climate control because of potential oil migration and so on, but I'm more worried about getting a sticky aperture, not about the shutter failing, and have not seen it happen.

I really cannot imagine that a car got hot enough to melt a fuse in the Nikon F5, or reflow circuit board solder. Even the thermal overload fuse in my coffee maker is rated at 165 C (and that's a thermal fuse, not an electrical current fuse). I can imagine that thermal stress could affect a weak solder joint turning it bad, damaged a sensitive part like the LCD, or got hot enough to make a piece of rubber perma-sticky, or got oil where it shouldn't be. So I'm not doubting that heat killed the F5, just the suggested mechanism.

 

[Chuck1]

I've had good luck in warmer temps, but in the cold several compurs don't do anything

 

[AnselMortensen]

I went for a walk in Palm Springs. CA with my F3HP on a 105°F day.
I found an abandoned 1950's motel that was begging to be photographed..but the F3HP was completely unresponsive.
After I returned to my air-conditioned hotel room, it was back to normal.

My F4S stopped operating after 2 frames in -10°F weather in Indianapolis, IN when the Olympic Flame made a lap around the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, c. 2002.
Back home, it was back to normal.

 

[BrianShaw]

That best describes my body in those kind of weather conditions!

 

[Don_ih]

I went for a walk in Palm Springs. CA with my F3HP on a 105°F day.
I found an abandoned 1950's motel that was begging to be photographed..but the F3HP was completely unresponsive.
After I returned to my air-conditioned hotel room, it was back to normal.

My F4S stopped operating after 2 frames in -10°F weather in Indianapolis, IN when the Olympic Flame made a lap around the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, c. 2002.
Back home, it was back to normal.

That's why you'd need a Leica IIIF (or even a C) - those conditions would do nothing to it.

 

[Kino]

I live in a hot place and I don't like storing cameras etc outside climate control because of potential oil migration and so on, but I'm more worried about getting a sticky aperture, not about the shutter failing, and have not seen it happen.

I really cannot imagine that a car got hot enough to melt a fuse in the Nikon F5, or reflow circuit board solder. Even the thermal overload fuse in my coffee maker is rated at 165 C (and that's a thermal fuse, not an electrical current fuse). I can imagine that thermal stress could affect a weak solder joint turning it bad, damaged a sensitive part like the LCD, or got hot enough to make a piece of rubber perma-sticky, or got oil where it shouldn't be. So I'm not doubting that heat killed the F5, just the suggested mechanism.

Supposedly, this camera was in a car parked in the Dead Sea area for over 2 weeks. The MF-28 data back has a large, oval black spot burned into the LCD screen. It obviously got pretty darned hot...

 

[Dan Daniel]

Thanks ofr the thoughts and experiences with heat. I am not certain if the blank frames in the heat was becasue of the torn shutter blades, or if at the same time another part of the Medalist had expanded out of range. The Medalist is a bit of an crude camera, with lots of sliding connections without secure gearing and such. A leica, e.g., is full of meshed gears and such kepping mechnisms. So I could see something right on the edge of operability going out of range under the right expansion or contraction. Or maybe it was all the luck of the draw and the camera was going to fail at that point in its life no matter!

Someone mentioned Compur shutters and the cold. One thing I have noticed is that most Compurs have a decent amount of molybdenum grease (or a graphite paste??) in them. Not the lightest grease and not the smallest amount. Not sure how much was factory lube or standard repair practice in the '50s or so. If you are shooting in the cold regularly it might be good to have the shutters cleaned up and greased with a lighter grease that will work better in the cold.

I've known about electronics failing in heat, but this situation where failure of a mechanical seems to be tied to heat threw me off. thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

 

[BrianShaw]

Someone mentioned Compur shutters and the cold. One thing I have noticed is that most Compurs have a decent amount of molybdenum grease (or a graphite paste??) in them. Not the lightest grease and not the smallest amount. Not sure how much was factory lube or standard repair practice in the '50s or so. If you are shooting in the cold regularly it might be good to have the shutters cleaned up and greased with a lighter grease that will work better in the cold.

The Compur lubrication schedule has always amused me. The specification calls for 3 rather mysteriously named lubricants: A, B, and C, which were only available from thir service dpartment. All appear to be greases from the lubrication plan, which features more grease than most other shutters. Perhaps this is what it takes to keep a "Swiss watch" running effeciently. Further specification of lubricants A, B and C have evaded me. And then, in the lubrication plan they also introduce a "lubricant D", which appears to be another grease. Very mysterious and intriquing!

Interestingly to this discussion, I cannot find any information in the factory repair manuals regarding either winterizing or tropical-izing the shutters.

 

[forest bagger]

When I got the camera in, everything was fine. Shutter release and wind release synced, shutter fired smoothly, etc. I was wondering, then remembered the heat issue.
Attached is a photo of the shutter blades. And then they ate each other up more in use?

It looks to me as if the blades, especially the one in the left upper corner, were damaged by someone who repaired the shutter long ago.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Brian, I use a basic approach to lubrication- if it spins, oil. If it slides, grease. A heavy pressure item like a Rolleiflex winding lever assembly, will be a heavier grease. A low pressure item item like the cockingring on a Compur shutter, lighter grease. Well, general rules that depend on specific instances.

Forest Bagger, you are probably right. I know that I didn't install a blade as torn on these, but as I said I may have nicked one or both, and then the pressures of opening and closing added more and more damage. Or maybe a subtle bend, etc. Or yes, someone else before me. I've seen rivets break on shutter blades for no good reason, and I expect that any blade can be damaged in ways that take time to become as obvious as the blades I have here.