Hc110 simplified.

rob champagne said:

Just to annoy Jason cos I know he loves it when I do, it's even easier to say:

1+49 is the ratio. Why? Because 1+49 = 50 and if you have a 500ml tank then the amount of goop you use is 500/50 = 10. 49 lots of 10 is 490 and 490 + 10 is 500.
Dividing by 50 is so much easier than dividing by 51

And I agree 1+49 is a good dilution because it gives times sufficient for use in inversion tanks.

And Jason, you may like to add to your page that in Europe some HC110 sold in sizes less than 1 litre are not the same strength as the 1 litre bottles and therefore require different dilutions from what is quoted on your page. Many have been caught out by this little ploy from kodak.

The 500ml bottle dilutes 1+9 for Dilution B whereas the 1 litre bottle dilutes 1+31 for dilution B.

Now that's what I call confusing

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LOL

No annoyance here, I'm still trying to decide exactly what 1:50 means on my planet...

Oh, and there is a little disclaimer that the times are for the US version.

JBrunner said:

LOL
Oh, and there is a little disclaimer that the times are for the US version.

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Well being uncivilised I didn't read it all...

rob champagne said:

Well being uncivilised I didn't read it all...

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I thought you guys had gone metric.

JBrunner said:

I thought you guys had gone metric.

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well that depends. For example, would I demand a pound of flesh or 453.592 grams of flesh?

Another thanks from the metric world

Your acros100 time is about the same as what I had come up with for a 1:59/1:60 dilution iso80 combo

Love your work, keep it up

My point above, which I didn't present very well, is that I think newbies tend to worry way to much about their choices. What film is best, what paper is best, which developer is best...... Even if they pick rock steady D76, they'll worry what dilution, how much agitation, normal or stand, on and on.

With HC110 I advise the first time user that it can be be used at many different ratios, doesn't make much difference which one they start with, that it is easy to mix straight from syrup and then make the math easy, that's how I fell into 15ml into 1000ml of water. But most important, don't worry about the alphabet soup just do it.

As their experience grows, and they want to branch out, give another ratio a try.

It's pretty easy in this hobby to get tied up in choices and not get anything done, this is really true for someone just starting out.

I subscribe to Fred Pickers attitude on this, just try it yourself. Nothing beats learning for yourself what works and what doesn't.

Mike

mikebarger said:

I subscribe to Fred Pickers attitude on this, just try it yourself. Nothing beats learning for yourself what works and what doesn't.

Mike

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Yes, that’s why I started to use HC 110 1+50 with TXP.

Jason, your TXP recommendation is the same as mine.

Here's a page regarding hc110 that you may find interesting:

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

Might I suggest another starting point: If you dilute the concentrated syrup 1+9 into a stock solution, it is very easy to follow either Kodak's or your own dilution schedule. Assuming you use and develop film fairly regularly, shelf life of the stock shouldn't be much of an issue. I originally came across this 1+9 method in some literature by Maine Photographic Workshops some 15 years ago.

In the 1+9 scheme, each 10 units of stock solution contains 1 unit of the concentrate. 10 ounce stock will contain 1 oz concentrate, 10ml stock will contain 1ml concentrate, 10 liters stock will contain 1 liter concentrate, and 10 buckets of stock will contain 1 bucket of concentrate, etc.

To get desired dilutions, simply subtract that 10 parts stock from the working dilution you wish to achieve and add the difference in parts water: for Jason's 1+50 (=51) mix, add 41 units water to 10 units stock (41+10=51=1+50); for Kodak's dilution B, add 22 parts water to 10 parts stock (to get 1+31=32); for dilution H add 54 parts water to 10 parts stock (=1+63); and for dilution A add 6 parts water to 10 parts stock (=1+15), etc.

The 1+9 stock is much less viscous than the syrupy concentrate and can be measured more conveniently and IMO, with less error.

Joe

Archaic or arcane?

"....baffled by the archaic dilutions and sub-dilutions of HC110...." My quibbles are two: [1] Perhaps you mean arcane dilutions; that is different concept. [2] How is that people cannot do relatively simple arithmetic? Beyond this quasi-negativism, I applaud your efforts to simplify this, or anything else.

Larry.Manuel said:

"....baffled by the archaic dilutions and sub-dilutions of HC110...." My quibbles are two: [1] Perhaps you mean arcane dilutions; that is different concept. [2] How is that people cannot do relatively simple arithmetic? Beyond this quasi-negativism, I applaud your efforts to simplify this, or anything else.

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[1] Quite right.

[2] Right again, however, the math really isn't the core issue, 1:50 is just easy to remember and figure, rather than a code letter for a seemingly arbitrary ratio, etc.

It's mostly about having a simple dilution with useful times. I'm not trying to convert a long time Dil B user to some ground breaking new method. Mostly I'm trying to help the newb.

Anybody who thinks many newcomers to film don't find it really confusing is welcome to start answering my emails. I get about 4-5 Hc110 questions a week.

mikebarger said:

My point above, which I didn't present very well, is that I think newbies tend to worry way to much about their choices. What film is best, what paper is best, which developer is best...... Even if they pick rock steady D76, they'll worry what dilution, how much agitation, normal or stand, on and on.

With HC110 I advise the first time user that it can be be used at many different ratios, doesn't make much difference which one they start with, that it is easy to mix straight from syrup and then make the math easy, that's how I fell into 15ml into 1000ml of water. But most important, don't worry about the alphabet soup just do it.

As their experience grows, and they want to branch out, give another ratio a try.

It's pretty easy in this hobby to get tied up in choices and not get anything done, this is really true for someone just starting out.

I subscribe to Fred Pickers attitude on this, just try it yourself. Nothing beats learning for yourself what works and what doesn't.

Mike

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I agree. Very well put.

It's notable that in my observation a very many people get sent home with
Hc110 from brick and mortars when shopping for their first processing supplies. I'm sure there is a reason for this.

I applaud Jason's efforts to simplify the use of HC-110. It was not THAT long ago that I got into LF and started to use HC-110 (after reading "The Negative," just like a lot of other folks). Call me a lunkhead if you like, but my first encounter with it was a little baffling. I did figure it out after a while and I now use it one-shot directly from syrup.

I have a few points to add to the discussion. First, newbies need to be careful with the ratio thing. 1:50 actually means 51 parts, which defeats the idea of easy multiples. One should think of a 50 part solution as 1 + 49 = 50. This is not a big deal since all kinds of photographic chemistry is caculated this way.

This has bearing on my second point which takes us back into the realm of more tiresome calculations. That is, one needs to be mindful of the amount of syrup in the solution with regard to the amount of film being developed. You can't just add 2 ml of syrup to 98 ml of water and develop one sheet of 8x10. Or can you? Opinions (and presumably experience) on this vary widely, but Kodak recommends 3ml per 4x5 sheet, if I remember correctly. If you mixed 1 + 49 = 50 you would get 3 + 147 = 150 ml of solution. Six sheets (which is what my Jobo holds) would require 900 ml (which my Jobo doesn't hold).

Finally, although opinions differ here too, in my opinion, HC-110 lasts for a long time ONLY if you reduce the amount of air in the container. I always decant my HC-110 into small brown plastic medicine bottles. One more hint: if you don't want to use the syringe (which I don't), use a very narrow graduate to measure the syrup, and rinse it with the rest of the volume of the water.

I develop sheet film in a Jobo and will post the times as soon as I can get home and consult my notes.

Jason, thanks for getting this whole thing started. I hope that I have not taken us back into the realm of complications.

Don

I've had a different experience relating to the exactness of the mixture with HC110 from syurp. While not a lab quality test, as stated above I use 15ML of HC110 and add water to make 1000ML. On a couple of occasions I've tried 15ML with 985 ML of water, and 16ML of HC110 with water to make 1000ML.

End result, it didn't make a hooters dang in the end print. I do think it is important to do it the same everytime so you can get repeatable results, but the exact ratio when you first start out doesn't make much difference IMO.

In your point about 49/50 parts water, in a 120mm film two reel (1000ML) tank you would be off by 20ML water. Based on my casual test above I don't think you would see a difference in the final print whether you used 49 or 50ML water per ML of HC110. If you are using a quantity a lot larger than 1000ML in a tank, then the outcome may make a difference.

Any number related to the developing process is just a starting point. Anyway, just a thought.


Mike

I have a 2-year-old bottle about one-third full. I don't add marbles or top off with inert gas or maintain a constant temp or anything like that. Still works as well as the day I bought it, in fact, I just finished developing a roll of Tri-X, beautiful negatives.

But everyone's situation is different and there are many experiences that are different.

I also use a small stainless tank for 120 and 35mm (a Unicolor drum or trays for 4x5) and use 7ml of syrup with water to make 450ml, and double the times for Dil B found on the Kodak data sheet. For Tri-X, that would be 7 1/2 minutes at 68 degrees. If you use Tri-X 320 or TXP, then it's 9 1/2 minutes at 68 degrees.

Jason -thanks for the info. I've been using HC110 at 1:50 and 1:100 too. I use Arista.edu ultra 100 in 120 with HC110 at 1:100 for 18 min at 20C. I agitate for the first 30 seconds continous, then one inversion only at 3,6,9,12 and 15 minutes. I only use HC110 from the syrup, one-shot. I seem to get some acutance effects with the high dilutions, but not as much as rodinal.

Dang man, you guys gave me a headache!
I'm sticking to d76
Or PMK 1:10:100.
I have problems filling up my Nova slot to 3.75 liters of liquid that I needed to calculate the ratio of stuff I put in there. Time to get my 12 year old to calculate that stuff....

I thought what, then I saw the Southern California location.

Mike

JBrunner said:

1:50 is super easy to calculate, and creates forgiving times, handy for expansion and contraction, and especially important for the novice developer, who may be still getting a handle on things. Tonally, etc., I can't tell any difference from Dil B, I suppose somewhere somebody thinks they can, or maybe even does.

The "official" dilutions, and intermediate "working solution" are simply a pain, especially for the beginner, and unused Hc110 as a concentrate keeps like the dickens.

The original dilutions made sense once upon a time, but now they are just cumbersome, especially for those just starting out.

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Jason, you b*stard.

I have been staving off Alzheimer's disease by using metric measures and doing the math for the HC110 dilutions in my head. Now, thanks to your handy guide of decimalized dilutions, I will start losing my marbles. Either that, or I will have to find imperial measures and do the math for the decimalized dilutions in my head. Either way, it is going to be terribly inconvenient.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you.
Also my five unopened bottles of HC-110 thank you as well.

mikebarger said:

I thought what, then I saw the Southern California location.

Mike

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I had a bad education in Brooklyn, NY actually
I know how to steal cars though.

eric said:

I had a bad education in Brooklyn, NY actually
I know how to steal cars though.

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My Dad always told me "If your gonna steal a car, steal a nice one, because grand theft auto is grand theft auto..."

Awesome. No time to read all of the posts, but I'm definitely checking out that page!

Thanks Jason!

Nigel said:

....Either that, or I will have to find imperial measures and do the math for the decimalized dilutions in my head. Either way, it is going to be terribly inconvenient.

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No problem. Just do the math in "special" volumetric measures like:
tuns
cubic feet
cubic cubits
acre feet
gills
hogsheads
homers
logs

You will be on your way to the head of the class or the nuthouse in no time.

C

I'm working on 1+50 (10ml of goop per 500ml of water), but won't know the times for the film I have until I'm done with it. (Also, it'll help to have a meter. I'm generally very close with Sunny 16, but metering to be sure in this case is probably a plus.)