HC 110 v 510 Pyro a video and chat with James Lane

pentaxuser · May 17, 2022

Recently the long thread by vania on his problem with exposure lines using HC110 and the lengthy thread quite some time ago about 510 Pyro and James Lane the producer of it in the U.K. made me want to take a look at the video If you are only interested in what James Lane has to say about 510 Pyro then jump to 8:36 When asked if he had to licence the production of it from Jay deFehr, he does really seem to answer this specific question but I inferred that he does not have to licence it Maybe Jay de Fehr never took out any copyright/patent on its production

Anyway for those with an interest here it is

pentaxuser

Louis Nargi · May 17, 2022

Interesting

albireo · May 18, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Recently the long thread by vania on his problem with exposure lines using HC110 and the lengthy thread quite some time ago about 510 Pyro and James Lane

Is this the same person who was kicked out of basically every film photography film community on facebook at some point or another for picking petty fights with people about pretty much everything in order to advertise his business? If so, surprised this character is still around and getting attention. I think at some point he started to engage in unsolicited personal attacks towards Nik (of Nik & Trick Photographic Services) who's the UK importer for hard to find (in the UK) photo dev products (eg Rodinal and Bellini Photo products). His solution to the bans was to create his own special 'UK film photography community'. Truly.. Interesting character.

minh0204 · May 18, 2022

albireo said:
Is this the same person who was kicked out of basically every film photography film community on facebook at some point or another for picking petty fights with people about pretty much everything in order to advertise his business? If so, surprised this character is still around and getting attention.

Who are you referring to in this comment?

You can get all the Bellini stuffs from Firstcall, which is a respectable source.

pentaxuser · May 18, 2022

Yes Albireo, that was the same person although what his behaviour was like was not something I have knowledge of outside of Photrio. He was very mild in the video but was clearly not under scrutiny there. In fact it was a video that promoted 510 Pyro and James Lane for producing it.

I was just curious as to (a) what he looked like and (b) how he might handle the interview

pentaxuser

250swb · May 19, 2022

I never realised there was a controversy, I got a bottle of his 510 Pyro from Silverprint recently and it works exactly like when I mixed a batch myself, so the product itself is sound. Photography is littered with adapted formulas that become accepted in their own right. I know Jay put a lot into 510 Pyro, but it would be interesting to know if he had a started by improving another formula, or alternately at what point do published formulas become 'open source'.

andynguyen · Dec 10, 2022

I've been making, using & selling 510pyro in Vietnam for a good 5-6 years now, albeit only domestically. Jay didnt file a patent for his formula nor demand anything from me when I let him know I was doing it. Heck, he didnt even think it has commercial potential beyond hobbyist circles.
James's stuff is even slightly better than mine in terms of manufacturing. Results are identical.
It sure isnt the be-all and end-all for developers. Nothing is. Trade-offs have to be made. The only question worth asking is whether it fits one's priorities & taste.
James is expanding into Vietnam and in a way he'll be my competitor now but even then i dont see how that becomes a reason for me to be out for his blood. Developers are a dime a dozen, stick to what works for you & let him be, guys.

pentaxuser · Dec 11, 2022

andynguyen said:
James's stuff is even slightly better than mine in terms of manufacturing. Results are identical.

Can I ask what it is about James's stuff that is better in terms of manufacturing if results are identical?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 11, 2022

James Lane left a comment on my 510-Pyro video, promoting sales of it at his business. I deleted it. Ummm sorry Mr. Lane, but you will not promote your business through me!

Nodda Duma · Dec 11, 2022

Just wanted to state that this guy is in no way related to me, nor does he make dry plates that I’m aware of.

(My father is, however, named James Lane but is much older, rougher, and lives in Arkansas.)

- Jason

pentaxuser · Dec 11, 2022

Nodda Duma said:
Just wanted to state that this guy is in no way related to me, nor does he make dry plates that I’m aware of.

(My father is, however, named James Lane but is much older, rougher, and lives in Arkansas.)

- Jason

Don't worry. I think that those of us who studied the information we have on James Lane will have no trouble in realising that he has no link to your father

pentaxuser

andynguyen · Dec 11, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Can I ask what it is about James's stuff that is better in terms of manufacturing if results are identical?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Hi, well, the composition is the same, of course, but there's slightly different ways to mix them together, and the results look different. It can range from almost colorless to amber to rodinal-like color to brown & darker shades than that. James' is more pale than mine. I can't tell you in more details, I'm afraid. But pale is good, dark is less good. Think of it like steak: to get the perfect done-ness.

pentaxuser · Dec 12, 2022

Thanks. In what way do you mix yours differently compared to James's? If the composition is the same, have you worked out why James's is always paler than yours. Is there a particular reason why paler is better?

I am no chemist myself but I am a bit puzzled why there are any differences if the composition is the same?

Does his 510 have a longer life than yours?

pentaxuser

andynguyen · Dec 12, 2022

Afraid I can't indulge you that far into the fine details. Trade secret. I could only make a remote analogy: same piece of beef, but you can fire-grill it, sous-vide it, or smoke-grill it and get different results depending on your setup & skill. Getting the right purity of TEA & virgin chemicals also makes a difference, not only on the visual but also the quality.

In real use terms, the difference isnt that measurable or significant. I didnt really care abt the visual for a good 4-5 years. It worked, so I didnt feel like fixing it. Then James showed me his version and the challenge was on. I have it worked out now & i'm pretty dialed in on the color for the recent batches, but not after some process & equipment tweaking. All good fun for lab rats.

Shelf-life is about the same, we concur. I'm still using a 500ml bottle from my 1st batch (made 6 years ago). It has turned pitch-black and it's still going strong.

faberryman · Dec 12, 2022

Jay DeFehr has a 2018 video on YouTube showing how to mix up the four ingredients which comprise 510 Pyro. It looks straightforward to me. He is not standing on one foot or waving a magic wand. He says if the TEA is older the solution will darken. He is using a heated magnetic stirrer.

pentaxuser · Dec 12, 2022

andynguyen said:
Afraid I can't indulge you that far into the fine details. Trade secret. I could only make a remote analogy: same piece of beef, but you can fire-grill it, sous-vide it, or smoke-grill it and get different results depending on your setup & skill. Getting the right purity of TEA & virgin chemicals also makes a difference, not only on the visual but also the quality.

Shelf-life is about the same, we concur. I'm still using a 500ml bottle from my 1st batch (made 6 years ago). It has turned pitch-black and it's still going strong.

Thanks I will take your "trade secret" phrase in the humorous spirit in which I think it is offered. If I didn't take it that way then I'd have to conclude that like faberryman, you might be introducing a kind of "black magic" into the making of 510 when we all know that in photo chemistry or indeed in life there is no such thing as black magic

If yours is now pitch black but James's is always paler then frankly I see no advantage in paler 510 if there is no practical benefit

pentaxuser

andynguyen · Dec 12, 2022

No

pentaxuser said:
Thanks I will take your "trade secret" phrase in the humorous spirit in which I think it is offered. If I didn't take it that way then I'd have to conclude that like faberryman, you might be introducing a kind of "black magic" into the making of 510 when we all know that in photo chemistry or indeed in life there is no such thing as black magic

If yours is now pitch black but James's is always paler then frankly I see no advantage in paler 510 if there is no practical benefit

pentaxuser

Well, as I said, it may not concern end-users that much. As commercial players, we're faced with problems of consistency when making it in larger scale. The color atests to the level of process design & control that the maker is willing to maintain.
Making some 200-500ml of pyro on a heated magnetic stirrer is piece of cake. I could easily make it even without 1. But stirring a 2L or 5L pot of syrupy liquid & getting consistency is a whole new problem. Perhaps it's easier to appreciate the effort to overcome challenges after one has tried

faberryman · Dec 12, 2022

Jay DeFehr was making 1000ml of 510 Pyro.

relistan · Dec 13, 2022

faberryman said:
Jay DeFehr has a 2018 video on YouTube showing how to mix up the four ingredients which comprise 510 Pyro. It looks straightforward to me. He is not standing on one foot or waving a magic wand. He says if the TEA is older the solution will darken. He is using a heated magnetic stirrer.

Agreed, in Jay’s video he’s not even waiting for the previous ingredient to dissolve before adding the others—and because it’s in TEA, he’s not worried to put the ascorbic acid first to make sure it’s there to preserve the other agents. Other than darker TEA, which Gainer also discussed, the only other way for the developer to darken is oxidation of the developing agents. Mixing the ascorbic acid first might change that very very slightly but can’t see it would matter much. I don’t know if the pH of TEA drifts with oxidation but other than oxidized developing agents, that would be the thing I think is most likely to impact performance over time. I’m sure someone here knows the answer to that question about TEA.

pentaxuser · Dec 13, 2022

andynguyen said:
No

Well, as I said, it may not concern end-users that much. As commercial players, we're faced with problems of consistency when making it in larger scale. The color atests to the level of process design & control that the maker is willing to maintain.
Making some 200-500ml of pyro on a heated magnetic stirrer is piece of cake. I could easily make it even without 1. But stirring a 2L or 5L pot of syrupy liquid & getting consistency is a whole new problem. Perhaps it's easier to appreciate the effort to overcome challenges after one has tried

Yes you may well be right in the first sentence and thus if your stuff or my stuff made to Jay DeFehr's recipe or John Finch's ( essentially the same) or bought from Photographer's Formulary or James Lane's ZoneImaging do the same thing as they all seem to, then my only concern is price.

If your process or James Lane's has an edge then as a consumer it has to be demonstrable to me in terms of outcome for negatives

Anyone claiming that their developer, made to a known recipe, has a certainly "magic" in it, has to explain the magic and demonstrate its powers, otherwise it just sounds like "marketing speak"

I remember all the famous adverts from the 1950s( the great days of the Mad ( Madison Avenue) Men about certain combinations of washing machines and washing powder that were magic combinations that gave the specific combination the "edge"

Of course these magic combinatons involved a lot of independent research and the washing powder maker and washing machine maker had no links with each other

pentaxuser

andynguyen · Dec 13, 2022

relistan said:
Agreed, in Jay’s video he’s not even waiting for the previous ingredient to dissolve before adding the others—and because it’s in TEA, he’s not worried to put the ascorbic acid first to make sure it’s there to preserve the other agents. Other than darker TEA, which Gainer also discussed, the only other way for the developer to darken is oxidation of the developing agents. Mixing the ascorbic acid first might change that very very slightly but can’t see it would matter much. I don’t know if the pH of TEA drifts with oxidation but other than oxidized developing agents, that would be the thing I think is most likely to impact performance over time. I’m sure someone here knows the answer to that question about TEA.

no. TEA is a very strong buffer. And it takes very little oxidation for things to turn dark, so it's ok however it looks.

andynguyen · Dec 15, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Yes you may well be right in the first sentence and thus if your stuff or my stuff made to Jay DeFehr's recipe or John Finch's ( essentially the same) or bought from Photographer's Formulary or James Lane's ZoneImaging do the same thing as they all seem to, then my only concern is price.

If your process or James Lane's has an edge then as a consumer it has to be demonstrable to me in terms of outcome for negatives

Anyone claiming that their developer, made to a known recipe, has a certainly "magic" in it, has to explain the magic and demonstrate its powers, otherwise it just sounds like "marketing speak"

I remember all the famous adverts from the 1950s( the great days of the Mad ( Madison Avenue) Men about certain combinations of washing machines and washing powder that were magic combinations that gave the specific combination the "edge"

Of course these magic combinatons involved a lot of independent research and the washing powder maker and washing machine maker had no links with each other

pentaxuser

Yes & no. As I said, Jay's formula states the ingredients & methods, just like a cooking formula. But as you already know, recipes are not the be-all & end-all in cooking. There're variables.
Ingredient quality (grade) differs. Storage conditions differ. Fabrication methods differ. So end quality & consistency differs.
In this particular recipe: is your phenidone (& other chems) pure-white or slighly off-white or darker-shaded? Is your TEA 99.9%, 95%, or just 80% with the impurity being water or DEA? Water will increase oxidation rate, DEA will mess a bit with pH and, thus, activity. Is your scale accurate to .0 or .00? Do you account for volume change at different temperature?
Care needs to be taken at every step to ensure quality consitency & quality from batch to batch. The end color does reflect the care given. Though it might not tell the whole story, it's a good indicator.

If the only thing you appreciate is price, i'm not sure you're seeing the whole picture here.

pentaxuser · Dec 15, 2022

andynguyen said:
If the only thing you appreciate is price, i'm not sure you're seeing the whole picture here.

No I fear that may be the case. It certainly was when I used to buy a washing powder that worked as it should and was the cheapest. After 99 years on this Earth I have sadly concluded that I may never appreciate that famous "magic touch" that is being sold

I think our conversation has now come to a practical end

pentaxuser

andynguyen · Dec 15, 2022

pentaxuser said:
No I fear that may be the case. It certainly was when I used to buy a washing powder that worked as it should and was the cheapest. After 99 years on this Earth I have sadly concluded that I may never appreciate that famous "magic touch" that is being sold

I think our conversation has now come to a practical end

pentaxuser

Well, certainly so. Some ppl like lossless music, some are happy with mp3, I get that. I've gone this far to explain not for your sake but rather for those who seek. So not all is lost.

HC 110 v 510 Pyro a video and chat with James Lane

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