HC 110 Reverse Engineering

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 25, 2012

I have contacted with a University Analytical Chemistry Lab to get an quote for revealing the HC 110 Formula.

My question is , how a lab identify only Kodak manufactured rare chemical ? Do labs get a update every year for every chemical ever manufactured in US ? Or the spectrum archive is specific to most known chemicals ?

This is an big modern university lab with doping unit also and I am not sure whether they would succeed or not ?

PE,

What do you advise ?

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 25, 2012

I know it but Patent is dated 1971 and nobody is agree on the correctness. In time some people claim some chemical inside of the mix and than replaced. People agree , todays formula is not the old one , if I followed the Forum correctly in 6 years , everything changed since 70s. If there is a way for lab to succeed , I prefer university report to heated fight.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 25, 2012

Of course I will prepare a dossier with the all known or claimed facts. This will work great.

EASmithV · Oct 25, 2012

I wonder if Kodak will continue to make chemistry, or farm it out to Eastman Chemical when they collapse.

Roger Cole · Oct 25, 2012

Or continue to farm it out to Champion which they have been doing for some time already? I believe Champion is one of the major debt holders Kodak owes money to now.

Rudeofus · Oct 25, 2012

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Of course I will prepare a dossier with the all known or claimed facts. This will work great.

This may be great for informational and educational purposes, but let's get real: there are good chances that HC-110 contains compounds that only Kodak/Champion has access to or makes. In other words, buying HC-110 might be the cheapest way of obtaining those compounds. It might not be worth spending big money on finding out that this is indeed the case.

Kevin Kehler · Oct 25, 2012

I wonder if the other problem might be not knowing what is in the formula, but how to correctly mix it or in what order to make a successful formulation. Much like baking, if you blend baking soda in with the butter and wonder why your cookies don't work out, it is not just what is in HC-110, but how to correctly make it.

DREW WILEY · Oct 25, 2012

This has already been done. Over on the Dye Transfer forum there's a fellow in Australia named Andy
Cross who precisely reverse engineered it, but he has access to true research lab facilities. It's a highly difficult product to duplicate, involving hazardous precursors. You can't do it in a home lab. Apparently Kodak no longer offers liquid developers in Australia due to hazmat shipping issues, so he
made himself a lifetime supply in a single batch. The concentrate allegedly keeps for decades. HC110
is still readily available here, so I don't know why anyone would even bother attempting to duplicate
it here, though I notice Freestyle claims to have an actual substitute.

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2012

There are no proprietary chemicals in HC110 AFAIK. The secret is in the method of manufacture in which TEA is treated with SO2 gas to get a mix of a base and Sulfite. This makes the syrup water free for good stability. It is a tricky process for the individual that can cause an explosion if not done correctly.

PE

Rudeofus · Oct 25, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
It is a tricky process for the individual that can cause an explosion if not done correctly.

Not only that, but SO2 is both very smelly and highly toxic and therefore generally not a gas you want around you, unless you are properly equipped and trained for it.

DREW WILEY · Oct 25, 2012

Heck - nothin' to SO2. They work with it all the time at the Chevron refinery across town, and it has
only blown up once this summer, and doubled our gasoline price only for a couple of months. Things
are almost back to normal now.

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2012

Well, I forgot to add that they also bubble HBr gas into TEA to make the Bromide adduct to supply the pH balance and the Bromide ion as antifoggant.

PE

RattyMouse · Oct 25, 2012

TEA=triethanolamine?

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2012

Pioneer · Oct 25, 2012

I think I will just continue to buy mine from Kodak. Maybe if I buy a bottle a month for the next year or two I'll have a large enough supply for my personal use.

And probably a large enough supply to qualify as a large quantity generator for the EPA.

erikg · Oct 25, 2012

I think Champion will continue with HC-110 no matter what happens with Kodak . If it does go away I imagine we will have much bigger problems to worry about.

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2012

I use D76.

Athiril · Oct 25, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
This has already been done. Over on the Dye Transfer forum there's a fellow in Australia named Andy
Cross who precisely reverse engineered it, but he has access to true research lab facilities. It's a highly difficult product to duplicate, involving hazardous precursors. You can't do it in a home lab. Apparently Kodak no longer offers liquid developers in Australia due to hazmat shipping issues, so he
made himself a lifetime supply in a single batch. The concentrate allegedly keeps for decades. HC110
is still readily available here, so I don't know why anyone would even bother attempting to duplicate
it here, though I notice Freestyle claims to have an actual substitute.

iirc Kodak Australia doesn't import it, but we have no problem on having it shipped from the U.S. and receiving it. B&H has no problem sending it over.

artonpaper · Oct 26, 2012

I loved HC-110 with Tri-X before they reformulated Tri-X and the developing times for dilution B are now too short for roll film on a reel. I have always found the grain structure and shadow density produced by the TX/HC110B combo to be much more to my liking than D-76. Rodinol has wonderful qualities, but for me HC-110 was it.

Another thing about shelf life, I had someone give me bottles of very old HC-110. He said it worked fine. I saw a big difference in base fog, highlight separation, and D-Max areas when I processes a test roll (AKA a roll my wife shot). So it's shelf life is not infinite. Now that I got my old M2 repaired and fitted with a nice Summicron M lens, I'm playing with Tri-X in Rodinol, and T-Max 400 in HC-110B. Neither will be like the TX in HC-110. Sad face here.

erikg · Oct 26, 2012

artonpaper said:
I loved HC-110 with Tri-X before they reformulated Tri-X and the developing times for dilution B are now too short for roll film on a reel. I have always found the grain structure and shadow density produced by the TX/HC110B combo to be much more to my liking than D-76. Rodinol has wonderful qualities, but for me HC-110 was it.

Another thing about shelf life, I had someone give me bottles of very old HC-110. He said it worked fine. I saw a big difference in base fog, highlight separation, and D-Max areas when I processes a test roll (AKA a roll my wife shot). So it's shelf life is not infinite. Now that I got my old M2 repaired and fitted with a nice Summicron M lens, I'm playing with Tri-X in Rodinol, and T-Max 400 in HC-110B. Neither will be like the TX in HC-110. Sad face here.

Well, nothing can stay on the shelf forever and not change. Rodinal goes too. But, why stay with dilution B? You can go to a higher dilution if you want a longer time, HC-110 is remarkably consistent over a wide dilution range. I long ago switched to using ratios that I could mix without thinking too hard. 1:50, 1:75 etc.

artonpaper · Oct 27, 2012

erikg said:
Well, nothing can stay on the shelf forever and not change. Rodinal goes too. But, why stay with dilution B? You can go to a higher dilution if you want a longer time, HC-110 is remarkably consistent over a wide dilution range. I long ago switched to using ratios that I could mix without thinking too hard. 1:50, 1:75 etc.

I have considered that and perhaps I need to try it.

HC 110 Reverse Engineering

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