hC-110 getting grainier...

[Jessestr]

Hey

I've noticed that my develops with Tri-X 400 getting alittle grainier on 35mm. Normally the grain is fairly mild and not too bad, even when I shoot Tri-X 400 at 800 and develop for 400 it's still good. But now it seems that it's getting grainier. I don't do anything different but the HC-110 is colored red in the bottle of the air I think and I had to pour it in another jobo bottle because the hc110 bottle was leaking...

Could it be that the hc110 is degrading and thus give more grain? Or could it be that it is grainier because I developed it at 21.5°C instead of 20°C?

Many thanks

Jesse

 

[Fotoguy20d]

I've been noticing a fair amount of grain with HC-110 and Kentmere 100 and HP5 lately. Mine isnt red though. I have no idea what's causing it.

Dan

 

[Jessestr]

I've been noticing a fair amount of grain with HC-110 and Kentmere 100 and HP5 lately. Mine isnt red though.

In my situation it's the same bottle of previous year. I almost used 1L on a year for my own developments.. Still got some left.

 

[pentaxuser]

I wouldn't have thought that HC110 gets grainier with age or temperature. How are you measuring the extra graininess?

I have got grainier in the 12 years I have been on APUG and that certainly is with age

pentaxuser

 

[Jessestr]

I wouldn't have thought that HC110 gets grainier with age or temperature. How are you measuring the extra graininess?

I have got grainier in the 12 years I have been on APUG and that certainly is with age

pentaxuser

Hahah! That's a good one but okay. I don't measure it in any technical way. It just appeared to my eye it's grainer then other pictures. I'm shooting exclusively Tri-X 400 since I ever started out... Only tried one roll of Neopan 400 before haha. So cold storing the bottle could help in the future and keep as much light out as possible?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Has anything changed in your methods. Anything, different exposure, agitation, new thermometer, ... I have never heard anyone else make this observation for HC-110.

 

[Jessestr]

Has anything changed in your methods. Anything, different exposure, agitation, new thermometer, ... I have never heard anyone else make this observation for HC-110.

Nothing changed no.. Other than lightning conditions and such... Also different camera but that shouldn't change anything. I always measure skin tone with my spotmeter and then overexpose as needed 1 or 2 stops (or none, if dark skin). On the place that I want the skin tone to be % amount of grey. Then I start developing, 6:30 minutes, agitation (very slow), once per 10 seconds every minute and 30 seconds initial. Film is fresh and fridged, is used after 2 hours of being out the frigde.

I stop with water, no stop bath, but always did. Maybe it's the temperature?

 

[pentaxuser]

Is this your naked eye looking at the negatives without any form of magnification or is it looking at a print at say 8x10 inches?

If it isn't a 8 x 10 print then try making one and then look at it. I presume that there was a time when your negatives/prints were less grainy so try making prints from the less grainy negatives or at least look at both sets of negatives with sufficient magnification to see grain and compare.

Ideally put both the less grainy and more grainy negs into an enlarger and focus with a grain focuser. This will tell you if there is a grain difference.

If you have no access to a darkroom and an enlarger then you might want to check that nothing has changed in your scanning.

Frankly if you are basing your conclusions on looking at negatives without any form of magnification or you are basing your conclusions on scanning then I don't think you can make any meaningful conclusions.

In recent months apparent faults, problems with negatives,screen prints or hard prints from a scanner have been due to scanning problems.



pentaxuser

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I'm a long time user of HC-110 and have used it so old that it's a dark orange and goopy/gelatinous in its texture as I use the final dregs from the bottom of a bottle. Have noticed no difference in results from when new.

 

[franck]

Maybe it's the temperature?

Hello!

The temperature makes a difference, have you adjusted the time when going from 20°C to 21.5°C?
If not you are probably overdeveloping slightly (which could show up as more grain). If you have reduced the time, it might be that it is still a bit too much.

Cheers,

Franck

 

[MattKing]

A different camera means a different shutter, which most likely means a change in exposure, which could mean over-exposure, which could mean increased grain.

 

[Doc W]

I believe that HC-110 gets more orange, even close to red, as it oxidizes. Even then, I think it has a long shelf life. I decant HC-110 into smaller bottles so that I can keep it airtight until I use it.

 

[John Bragg]

Do not blame the HC-110. Something else in your workflow is causing the appearance of more grain. Increased temperature or time will not help, as it can mean over development. Tri-X is very forgiving, but you are doing something fundamentally wrong. HC-110 keeps well for literally years without deterioration. That is why I use it exclusively.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Jesstr,

I have a feeling its probably you not the HC110.

Without very sophisticated testing I doubt in all honesty you could actually perceive the 'increase' in grain with the human eye, even enlarging 35mm to 16 x 12 , but that does not mean to say it isn't happening I would be almost sure its a processing problem 'overdeveloping' or it certainly could be the camera not operating to parameters you think it is.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[gone]

Only one way to know. Buy some fresh developer and see what happens. Otherwise its just conjecture.

Is your film fresh, and has not been exposed to heat? That could give you more grain as well. Matt is right about a different camera giving different exposures. Still, unless you want to Sherlock Holmes this to death, the easiest thing is to simply try some fresh developer and see what you get.

 

[BetterSense]

Don't rule out perception. Perhaps you should start there in fact. The suggestion to go back and revisit older negatives was a good one. Make prints of old vs. new and view them side by side. It is well known how easy it is for cooks to develop a "house mouth". If musicians never heard any music but their own they can slowly drift out of tune. Sometimes recalibration of the grey matter is necessary.

Also, scanning film completely transforms the look of the film grain. What you see is nothing like what you have, even when using a drum scanner. Film grain exists at the level of image noise and no scanning technique in existence is designed to reproduce it faithfully, which would require truly absurd levels of resolution. The closest you can get with existing technology is to make an enlargement and scan it reflectively.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I think HC-110 is almost bullet proof. But I think think there are many things that cause grain with processing. Processing temperature and the wet time of your film. Also, if the chemicals are not the same temp, there can be reticulation if your film goes from a warmer chemical to a colder one.

 

[DWThomas]

...

Also, scanning film completely transforms the look of the film grain. What you see is nothing like what you have, even when using a drum scanner. Film grain exists at the level of image noise and no scanning technique in existence is designed to reproduce it faithfully, which would require truly absurd levels of resolution. The closest you can get with existing technology is to make an enlargement and scan it reflectively.

+1 Whilst reading this thread the phrase "grain aliasing" has popped into what's left of my mind. (Though the topic is better addressed at DPUG.) Having in the recent past worked from a 3 or 4 year old bottle of HC110 concentrate, I doubt it's the HC110. But there are a bunch of other variables that could affect grain. Again, direct inspection of the negative with a loupe -- or, Zeus forfend, a wet print -- might tell a lot.

 

[Jessestr]

A bunch of comments thanks! I don't blame HC-110 in first place! It's my favourite developer, classy! It was the first title that popped in my mind... to answer the questions... see below

Is this your naked eye looking at the negatives without any form of magnification or is it looking at a print at say 8x10 inches?

If it isn't a 8 x 10 print then try making one and then look at it. I presume that there was a time when your negatives/prints were less grainy so try making prints from the less grainy negatives or at least look at both sets of negatives with sufficient magnification to see grain and compare.

Ideally put both the less grainy and more grainy negs into an enlarger and focus with a grain focuser. This will tell you if there is a grain difference.

If you have no access to a darkroom and an enlarger then you might want to check that nothing has changed in your scanning.

Frankly if you are basing your conclusions on looking at negatives without any form of magnification or you are basing your conclusions on scanning then I don't think you can make any meaningful conclusions.

In recent months apparent faults, problems with negatives,screen prints or hard prints from a scanner have been due to scanning problems.


pentaxuser

@pentaxuser
I'm reviewing upon my scans. Which happens with the same scanner and settings. Perhaps I should put them below my enlarger and see for myself. As others already said, scanning could be also a problem. Thanks for your input!

Hello!

The temperature makes a difference, have you adjusted the time when going from 20°C to 21.5°C?
If not you are probably overdeveloping slightly (which could show up as more grain). If you have reduced the time, it might be that it is still a bit too much.

Cheers,

Franck

@Frank
Didn't adjust times, though I have a chart for it. I'll develop at 20°C again next time to rule out this problem. Thanks for your help!

A different camera means a different shutter, which most likely means a change in exposure, which could mean over-exposure, which could mean increased grain.

@MattKing
I see, it's a "new" (2nd hand) Nikon FE, before I used Leica M6, Nikon F100, Pentax ME Super, etc etc, no problems before with switching cameras. Since it's an electronic controlled shutter I think the times are correct. Or could they go bad over the years? Also thanks!

Dear Jesstr,

I have a feeling its probably you not the HC110.

Without very sophisticated testing I doubt in all honesty you could actually perceive the 'increase' in grain with the human eye, even enlarging 35mm to 16 x 12 , but that does not mean to say it isn't happening I would be almost sure its a processing problem 'overdeveloping' or it certainly could be the camera not operating to parameters you think it is.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

@Simon
Maybe, as stated, I should test this deeper and investigate it. I'm only shooting film for 1.5 years now (film only) so not a pro yet. But I want to get into all the details and specifications to know what's happening, and why it's happening. Thanks for your help.

Don't rule out perception. Perhaps you should start there in fact. The suggestion to go back and revisit older negatives was a good one. Make prints of old vs. new and view them side by side. It is well known how easy it is for cooks to develop a "house mouth". If musicians never heard any music but their own they can slowly drift out of tune. Sometimes recalibration of the grey matter is necessary.

Also, scanning film completely transforms the look of the film grain. What you see is nothing like what you have, even when using a drum scanner. Film grain exists at the level of image noise and no scanning technique in existence is designed to reproduce it faithfully, which would require truly absurd levels of resolution. The closest you can get with existing technology is to make an enlargement and scan it reflectively.

Didn't knew that scanners changed the grain... (well I did somewhere, my A3 prints always look much much cleaner than the scans) so maybe it's a combination of overdeveloping and scanning... Thanks for the help too!

 

[KidA]

I have been also using HC-110 exclusively for all my films (and for a relatively short period of time; just over a year... there's an obvious lack of experience). I'm relatively new to photography, and this first bottle is all I've used so far.

I've been getting, for the most part, great results with the exception of a few mistakes, in which I'm aware of what I did wrong. To the point: as of recently I've noticed my most recent negs are not giving me a clear film base (very low contrast) and upon trying to print them with significantly higher than normal contrast filters/papers to compensate, the grain is TERRIBLY more apparent. The shadow areas are simply worthless. The film bases have a greyish-brown tint. The effect is definitely more apparent on higher speed films. I mostly use Pan F+ and Delta 400. This effect was also apparent on Tri-X, T-Max (100 and 400) and HP5; apparent on both t-grain and 'normal' grain structure emulsions. Definitely much more apparent on the 400 speed films...

I searched quite a bit for this and few sources mentioned that it might be a fixer issue. The other day, while I was printing, and while I wait getting set up, I put a few rows of 5 frames that weren't so important into the (paper) fixer bath with some agitation for 3 minutes just out of curiosity. The film base definitely cleared up! I haven't had a chance to print from these negatives as I washed for a while and didn't have time to dry them (darkroom time was rather limited).

My questions would have to be: a) are you sure your fixer processes are proper (expiration/oxidation, etc)? And b) if anyone else has experienced this sort of thing and what are the processes used to fix (pun intended ) this sort of problem.

Sorry to go off on a little tangent, but it might be related to the problem

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The only way to evaluate the grain is to look at the negatives using a microscope. You would need two sets developed under that sane conditions. One set with old developer and one set with fresh. Even then it's very hard to do with any accuracy. You cannot look at prints (or even worse scans) because what appears as grains is actually the spaces between grains. Remember in a positive print everything is reversed.

When a company like Kodak measures the granularity of a film they use a scanning microscope. What is calculated is the Root Mean Square (RMS) Granularity. Kodak lists these values for their films but Ilford does not. This is really the only accurate way to distinguish granularity between sample. For more information read the following article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain