hazy versus meters

tballphoto · Oct 29, 2021

How can we be able to get a decent photograph using hazy eight for example, when the "knowledgeable video making folks" claim i need to do extensive calculations on my cameras light meter indications, to get a good photo?

ie, if the camera meter says it wants f8 @ 1/250 @ 400 iso film.. but hazy eight says toss it at f8 @ 1/350

BrianShaw · Oct 29, 2021

Why do you not trust or believe the meter… measured data of your exact scene?

Does your scene conform to the assumptions that underlies your “hazy 8” estimation?

BrianShaw · Oct 29, 2021

… and welcome to Photrio.

Chan Tran · Oct 29, 2021

What is hazy eight?

Moose22 · Oct 29, 2021

Chan Tran said:
What is hazy eight?

It's sunny 16, but for when it's hazy/cloudy you do the same and use F/8 and the inverse of the ISO. That's for overcast when shadows are visible, but just barely.

Hazy 8 is just a mnenonic to remember it. I don't care for the mnemonic personally, I think haze is like an f/11 thing, but that's what it is.

For OP, just trust the meter. All the Sunny 16 rules are just estimates. If you can get a precise measure, you can make your decisions on whether or how much to deviate from a precise number instead of a rough estimate, so why not?

Chan Tran · Oct 29, 2021

Moose22 said:
It's sunny 16, but for when it's hazy/cloudy you do the same and use F/8 and the inverse of the ISO. That's for overcast when shadows are visible, but just barely.

Hazy 8 is just a mnenonic to remember it. I don't care for the mnemonic personally, I think haze is like an f/11 thing, but that's what it is.

For OP, just trust the meter. All the Sunny 16 rules are just estimates. If you can get a precise measure, you can make your decisions on whether or how much to deviate from a precise number instead of a rough estimate, so why not?

Oh! I would use f/5.6 1/ISO for hazy condition so for ISO 400 it would be f/5.6 1/400 or f/8 1/200. Much closer to what the meter said.

DonW · Oct 29, 2021

Depends on your latitude. Sunny 16 is sunny 11 during the summer where I live. In the winter it's best to use a light meter and measure off a clear north sky of you have one.

Sirius Glass · Oct 29, 2021

Is your meter calibrated? If not, you have nothing.

benjiboy · Oct 30, 2021

I come from a generation of photographers to whom an understanding of "sunny sixteen" and being able to judge distance was basic because in those days light meters and range finders were not generally available to the public, however I believe that the human eyes because they are so quick and imperceptible in responding to changes in light intensity are very poor instruments in eveluateing exposure.

Chan Tran · Oct 30, 2021

benjiboy said:
I come from a generation of photographers to whom an understanding of "sunny sixteen" and being able to judge distance was basic because in those days light meters and range finders were not generally available to the public, however I believe that the human eyes because they are so quick and imperceptible in responding to changes in light intensity are very poor instruments in eveluateing exposure.

I don't use my eyes to judge brightness. I deduce the brightness via known conditions. For example full sun, hazy... etc..

BrianShaw · Oct 30, 2021

benjiboy said:
I come from a generation of photographers to whom an understanding of "sunny sixteen" and being able to judge distance was basic because in those days light meters and range finders were not generally available to the public, however I believe that the human eyes because they are so quick and imperceptible in responding to changes in light intensity are very poor instruments in eveluateing exposure.

Are you 150 years old? Light meters have been commonplace since the 1940’s. LOL

I know what you mean, though. I love light meters because they make one part of photography just a bit easier and give me less to think about. I can focus better on composition.

Just last week I was getting ready to shoot some film and noticed that I saw EV11 (at 100) but my old favorite meter was telling me EV12. After extended investigation it ends up that my eyes were better than that (now retired) meter. So I bought 2 new meters, not only for accuracy but for a calculator dial that my aging eyes can easily read. The first one I hoped would be easier to read… wasn’t. Oh well, the second one was.

p.s. I agree that eyes, thanks to the adaptive ness of our iris, isn’t better than a light meter. But it’s amazing how well some folks can estimate photographic light levels with eyes and other cues.

benjiboy · Oct 30, 2021

I am old but not yet 150, light meters in the days I started taking photographs as a teenager light meters were available but it was only a few professionals could afford them rather like colour temperature meters today.

canonshotz · Nov 18, 2021

measure the data of your exact scene and calibrate your metre

Helge · Nov 18, 2021

This is a pretty good iPhone interactive chart: https://apps.apple.com/dk/app/sunny16-exposure-calculator/id520156440?l=da
Charts are not nugatory because you have a meter.
Metering can still be “fooled” in high contrast situations. And there is a billion ways to fuck metering up even when you think it’s a standard situation.
It sets a ground for what to expect.

Very, very overcast in November in Denmark I can tell you though, is not EV12.
Rather 11 or 10.

faberryman · Nov 18, 2021

Didn't they invent Sunny 16 before the ASA folks removed the safety factor? If so, beginning around 1960, Sunny 16 should have became Sunny 22, except a lot of people think Sunny 11 works better, so for them there is a two stop difference between the rule of thumb and the meter, assuming it is calibrated, without even taking into consideration any EI adjustments you need to make based on the accuracy of your shutter speeds, the developer you are using, and your agitation method. It is practically a miracle anyone can get a decent exposure.

beemermark · Nov 18, 2021

faberryman said:
Didn't they invent Sunny 16 before the ASA folks removed the safety factory? If so, beginning around 1960, Sunny 16 should have became Sunny 22, except a lot of people think Sunny 11 works better, so for them there is a two stop difference between the rule of thumb and the meter, assuming it is calibrated, without even taking into consideration any EI adjustments you need to make based on the accuracy of your shutter speeds, the developer you are using, and your agitation method. It is practically a miracle anyone can get a decent exposure.

Where I live (SE US) it's definitely sunny 22.

wiltw · Nov 18, 2021

beemermark said:
Where I live (SE US) it's definitely sunny 22.

And up at Latitude 38, sometimes Sunny 16 really is Sunny 11.

gone · Nov 18, 2021

tballphoto said:
"knowledgeable video making folks"

I had to laugh reading that. If you find any, let me know!

De ju vu all over again. I've been reading this same post, or one like it, for a long time. Maybe 30, 40, 50 years? How old IS the internet?

Just buy a meter. I have one, it's a selenium but it' s dead accurate even in low light. Can't vouch for hazy days as I live in the desert. That way you can ck it against your camera meter and see if they register differently in that situation. If the op is in the states & will send me a message w/ their address, I'll ship it to 'em for free. Along w/ a mystery photographic surprise. A good one, it's the U.S. mail after all.

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2021

momus said:
Just buy a meter.

Three types, some are all in one:

Reflectance
Incident
Spot

tballphoto · Nov 19, 2021

It is an interesting question as the latitude of slide film is not exactly conducive to the hazy or sunny rules of film speed.

But yet, on another thought,, why is it that if i was to just go outside and shoot at 1/250 with my lens set to f/16.... i dont need to do any push or pull calculations when i develop film. But if i am to go out, and set the ISO dial to 100, and use a 400 ISO film,, i WOULD have to do push pull calculations and change the processing methodology,,, even though at face value,, and my math sucks,,,

the sunny 16 and running the 400 iso film at 100 iso in the camera would be about the same EV difference

wiltw · Nov 19, 2021

Today was hazy, but not heavily clouded. At ISO 250, reading of an 18% gray card resulted in 1/250 f/5.6 +0.4EV...just a bit more exposure needed than Cloudy (Hazy) 8, and a bit less than Overcast 5.6

grain elevator · Nov 19, 2021

topKam said:
It is an interesting question as the latitude of slide film is not exactly conducive to the hazy or sunny rules of film speed.

But yet, on another thought,, why is it that if i was to just go outside and shoot at 1/250 with my lens set to f/16.... i dont need to do any push or pull calculations when i develop film. But if i am to go out, and set the ISO dial to 100, and use a 400 ISO film,, i WOULD have to do push pull calculations and change the processing methodology,,, even though at face value,, and my math sucks,,,

the sunny 16 and running the 400 iso film at 100 iso in the camera would be about the same EV difference

Not sure what you're saying. What EV difference? 400 ISO film at 100 will be about two stops overexposed (unless the situation demands compensation). 1/250@f/16 will hardly ever overexpose ISO 400 film by two stops.

Pieter12 · Nov 19, 2021

My opinion is if you're not shooting reversal film, sunny 16 works just fine. Negative film has so much latitude you really have to be off by a couple of stops before you've ruined a shot. But if you want to be compulsive about it, shoot a color checker/grayscale card to check your meter, either hand-held or built-in. If your hand-held meter is off, you may be out of luck or have to compensate for its error. Nobody fixes or calibrates them anymore (almost, I think Spectra is still in business).

snusmumriken · Nov 22, 2021

Besides latitude and season and time of day, comprehensive exposure tables such as those in the Ilford Manual of Photography also adjusted 'sunny 16' according to whether you were taking landscapes, group photos, portraits or close-ups. An exposure meters only make this decision-making easier if you know how to use it (or if the algorithm in your camera/phone does). Film latitude lets you get away with errors up to a point. If you want to capture a particular effect of light, however, film latitude may not be enough.

It always amazes me that the axiom 'Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights' arose in the days before exposure meters were available. I can't quite comprehend how they did that - unless it simply meant 'Expose generously'.

Helge · Jan 31, 2022

One interesting aspect I don't often see discussed is that of aerial flashing or speedup.
Most will have observed that aerial films have a higher original rating than the realistic surface and close up rating. This is an old observation, that the Schwarzschild effect is mitigated by the lower contrast in slightly foggy or hazy conditions.
Of course with severe fog or clouds some of the light is also absorbed. But for humid, but otherwise sunny days, shooting with a tele lens at long or longish distances, could easily mean overexposing by a stop or more.
Of course with most modern film this effect is almost invisible. But in some cases like technical, IR, and reversal processed film it does matter.
You can even use it as an advantage, if you see noticeable aerial perspective, to underexpose and push the film, gaining speed with a tele lens.

hazy versus meters

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