Hazy lens

FrederikTheisen · Nov 6, 2017

Hello

I recently bought a Mamiya RB67 SD with a 127mm KL lens on eBay from a shop in Taiwan. The description said 'no haze' but when I look through the lens it's quite clear that there is haze. (and a small dink in the rear glass, but I don't know if it will affect the image)

The whole kit (ProSD back, WLF, Body, Lens) cost me 350 USD (ex shipping), which I thought was reasonable.
The seller offers to refund 30 USD, but if the lens does not produce good images, then it is basically useless and 30 USD won't pay for new lens.

The sellers response after I wrote that there must have been a mistake:

Dear Sir,
Sorry to heard that you're not satisfied with your purchasing.
We would like to offer a partial refund $30 USD for the lens. because it's very far away to return it back from Denmark to Taiwan.
Please take a consideration. Thank you!

Yours sincerely,

The haze is inside the lens, but near the rear element, is it possible to clean the haze off if I open the lens? It's very uniform, so I don't think it's fungus.
I imagine it's hard to judge if the haze will have a severe effect on the image from the photo I posted.
I was really looking forward to this camera, and now I'm a bit depressed that I cannot trust an eBay shop with 100% positive feedback.

Does anyone have any recommendations for what I should do?

Thank you,
Frederik

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 6, 2017

You have all my sympathy. I went through something very similar last week, but to my detriment it was a Rodenstock lens in the 1K$ range. The seller stubbornly refused to acknowledge the problem and I had to ship everything back to the USA.

Unfortunately the final decision is up to you. If everything else you bought is functional and in good conditions and you would like to keep it, you should write back to the seller and ask to increase the partial refund. Then you will take a bet: the lens is either OK and just dirty, or the glass/balsam is corroded. It is nearly impossible to understand where and what exactly this "haze" is without separating the groups of the lens. It may be just some patina that will come off with a tissue, or the inner coating is corroded, or it may be the balsam cementing the lenses that has degraded for some reason.

You should try to reach the point in which what you paid for the whole lot minus the refund you will get for the lens' issue would seem to you quite a good price for the camera alone. Perhaps not a deal you will write home about, but to live quite happy with it. Then, if the lens will clean up nicely, it will be a bonus.

You might also try to propose to the seller that the lens will be inspected and cleaned by a professional and share the costs. For some reason, however, all of the times that I have proposed this procedure, the sellers always refused and preferred to have the items shipped back (it happened also with the mentioned Rodenstock).

FrederikTheisen · Nov 6, 2017

Thank you for your reply, I really hope you didn't lose to much time and money on that lens.
The rest of the camera seems to work properly, I haven't had time to test it yet due to exams (also, effectively losing 200 USD is not very motivating on a student economy).
I do hope to test it tomorrow morning.

I guess if I could get a 100 USD refund I'd be reasonably happy about it. I'd probably have to buy a new identical lens for close to 250 USD, so I guess to idea of expanding my lens selection dies quickly.
The worst is just the time I spent on buying this camera.

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 6, 2017

I understand your feelings very well. I began photography around 15 years of age, and buying anything was a real struggle until I had a steady job.

Perhaps buying in Taiwan a camera that is so common in Europe like an RB was a bit incautious on your side. I'll be very frank: in my (long) experience, usually what appears as a "haze" that seems to be cleanable with a tissue, is very frequently something that can't be cleaned at all. If you could have your lens quickly inspected by a camera repair mechanic, that would be great. Explain to him your situation, and ask him if he can do you this favour.

If it's not feasible, I then suggest you to ask for a 100$ refund as you have written. If you get it, you're safe: even if everything fails with 100$ you can buy a Sekor C 127mm which is an excellent lens (my personal choice, by the way). If the seller refuses to refund 100$, I think you should repack everything and ship it back, accept the loss of time and buy another camera, possibly something you can inspect in first person in a shop nearby.

BAC1967 · Nov 6, 2017

Problems with the rear element can have a significant affect on image quality. If they don't offer a full refund I would file a grievance with eBay to get your money back since the sale was misleading. They always tend to take the side of the buyer but you may have to pay shipping to send it back.

Questor84 · Nov 6, 2017

If an item is Not As Advertised on eBay you do not have to pay return shipping. Seller is responsible. If you just change your mind and they accept returns then you are responsible. I bought a lens from Japan and the lens did not function properly. The aperture setting ring did not work. Seller paid for return shipping to Japan. As above I think eBay usually sides with buyer if there is a defined problem with the item and not buyer's remorse. Look under help / contact on eBay web page and you can confirm this return policy. Take more pictures especially with lens open and light shining through. A white background helps this. You can send with request and have them if eBay needs to get involved.

shutterfinger · Nov 6, 2017

Light to moderate haze is not a problem and its effect on images will be so slight that you will not notice it.
A scratch on the rear element can be seen in the image and a chip in the rear can cause flare. In the 1900's photographers used India ink to fill chips to prevent flare, I've used flat black paint on some very old lens chips.
In your ebay listing is a drop down options list under the Leave Feedback tab, if you used the contact seller in that list ebay is monitoring, if you want to return it use the Return this item from the list.

FrederikTheisen · Nov 6, 2017

(Story mode) I actually did look at an RB67 in Denmark, but it was pretty used and dirty and also cost a bit more. Also the place the guy lived in was messed up. It was like a "garden hut" used only in the summer and extremely messy, also the first thing that greeted me when I rolled up on my bike was a buffalo skull with hair and everything. Not so nice. We actually agreed to a price, but then the seller wanted to be payed cash, which gave me a bit of time to reconsider it.

I thought buying from a shop (using eBay as store front) with over 15k 100% positive feedback would be the safest possible option. Maybe there is a difference between Japan and Taiwan in shop quality?

Anyway, I really don't want to return it and I hope that don't want to pay the 80 USD return shipping + the 50 USD original shipping (+ whatever import fees apply in Taiwan and maybe even the 30 USD import fee I payed).
Due to the timezone diff, I only get replies during the night so I cannot do anything but wait for their reply.
I'll go out in the morning and shoot a roll of Portra 400 maybe develop Wednesday. I'll pass by a local photography shop which may be able to judge what kind of haze it is and if it's fixable.

shutterfinger · Nov 6, 2017

Be sure to use some strong side lighting hitting the lens at 22.5° and 45° to the lens center for best flare response if any.

John Koehrer · Nov 6, 2017

Questor84 said:
If an item is Not As Advertised on eBay you do not have to pay return shipping. Seller is responsible. If you just change your mind and they accept returns then you are responsible. I bought a lens from Japan and the lens did not function properly. The aperture setting ring did not work. Seller paid for return shipping to Japan. As above I think eBay usually sides with buyer if there is a defined problem with the item and not buyer's remorse. Look under help / contact on eBay web page and you can confirm this return policy. Take more pictures especially with lens open and light shining through. A white background helps this. You can send with request and have them if eBay needs to get involved.

I agree with Questor completely. The seller will pick up shipping both ways, That's the Ebay policy and once Ebay settles the claim
There's no out of pocket cost to you. The gentleman's offer is just silly. Have him replace the lens with a different one.
With the response you've gotten so far I'd be concerned what he'd replace it with.
Frustration and time but no money. As far as the seller's concerned give him the same sort of consideration he gave you.

Something called Karma

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 7, 2017

Indeed, as already written by others, you will not loose shipping costs if the seller is at fault. The picture you've posted here is more than enough for eBay consultants to stand on your side. Moreover, if you bought the RB through the Global Shipping Program, you will get back also the customs' fares. By my exchange of messages with US sellers I have learned by them that many customers don't want the Global Shipping Program because it is more expensive than the customs fares alone, but I always explicitly ask for it because import fares are so high in Italy - and the customs are such a hell of inefficiency - that I basically consider it an insurance in case something goes wrong. (Providentially, I bought the aforementioned Rodenstock under the Global Shipping Program).

Concerning your note about "over 15k 100% positive feedback", in general my experience on eBay is almost unbelievably positive (there is more honest people on this world than I thought when I first subscribed, 15 years ago or so), but the few occasional problems that I had, I had them with "Power Sellers" medalists and alike. I believe that this happens because beyond their account there is a pawn shop or something similar, where personnel not necessarily expert in photography (or whatever else) picks all kind of garbage from freak-os like the folk with the hairy skull in the garden that you mentioned, and then resell these goods without the ability to understand if the item is indeed fully funcional, has hidden flaws, etc. A one-to-one sale with a private seller that has owned and used the camera for a long time is usually less prone to lead to problems.

Should you decide to send the whole lot back, there are at least three photography shops in my hometown that usually have in stock used RBs (I might personally go and inspect the camera for you), and I can also suggest you a French and a German shop where I have bought frequently and that are both owned by very serious dealers. Just let me know. I have also been a student and a photographer and I understand how bitter your disappointment is.

FrederikTheisen · Nov 7, 2017

Thanks for the offer

They've replied and offered 100 USD in return. With that return the total price all inclusive (shipping, customs, fees, camera strap) will end just below 370 USD, which I think is reasonable.
I just visited a local photography store and had them take a quick look at the lens. They said it was pretty bad, but that I should try to leave the lens in direct sun for a day or two to see if the fog evaporated.
Not sure about that advice (also, the sun is nowhere to be found), what do you guys think?
I think I'll take the offer. Not sure if I should leave negative feedback though...
Once all is settled I'll update the thread with the store name and conclusion so that others may judge if the risk is worth it.

I've finished a roll of Portra 400, so I may develop it tomorrow (no changing bag, so I only load at night, in a box, under a bunch of blankets).

btaylor · Nov 7, 2017

From my perspective if you asked the seller for $100 to make things right and they complied I would definitely leave positive feedback. It will probably cost about that to have the lens cleaned by a professional and you'll be whole. I don't think leaving it in the sun is going to do anything. If it's a coating issue then you'll probably need to buy another lens, but in my experience that is rare, haze can be usually be easily cleaned by a technican.
I think one thing to remember is that this gear is decades old. Mechanical cameras made for professional use were precision machines designed to be serviced periodically to keep them working reliably. After they've been sitting for a decade or two in someone's closet even if they look mint they still need to be serviced to operate at specification. I think realistically, when you look at how inexpensive older professional film gear is these days, you are getting an amazing value for the quality you get for the money you put down. Don't worry about it, resolve the problem and enjoy the great images you're going to make with that RB. When I buy my stuff unless the seller shows me a receipt for a recent CLA from a reputable repairer I assume it will need service when I make the purchase.

EdSawyer · Nov 7, 2017

Remove the rear group with a spanner and see if you can clean the inner surface. IT's probably not too hard to do so. If it's between elements in the rear group that becomes a bigger issue. I've opened, cleaned, and repaired many RZ67 lenses, the RB ones should be similar.

jvo · Nov 7, 2017

i've removed a rear lens and cleared of fungus with a spanner wrench... haze is problematic...

i'd say return and get a full refund. as leverage i'd make a complaint to the e-site since the seller has already misrepresented the product, then tried to low ball you.

John Koehrer · Nov 7, 2017

FrederikTheisen said:
I guess if I could get a 100 USD refund I'd be reasonably happy about it. I'd probably have to buy a new identical lens for close to 250 USD, so I guess to idea of expanding my lens selection dies quickly.
The worst is just the time I spent on buying this camera.

It's up to you but to me, it's still a gamble. If it's not repairable and costs ~100. then a replacement lens is $250. that's $250
from your student budget, That may cover buying a roll or two of film.

Marco Gilardetti · Nov 8, 2017

FrederikTheisen said:
They've replied and offered 100 USD in return. With that return the total price all inclusive (shipping, customs, fees, camera strap) will end just below 370 USD, which I think is reasonable.
I just visited a local photography store and had them take a quick look at the lens. They said it was pretty bad, but that I should try to leave the lens in direct sun for a day or two to see if the fog evaporated.
Not sure about that advice (also, the sun is nowhere to be found), what do you guys think?
I think I'll take the offer. Not sure if I should leave negative feedback though...

I agree that since you asked a 100$ refund, and the seller actually acknowledged that refund in full, you shouldn't leave a negative feedback. Perhaps you should just not leave feedback at all if you are really furious about the wrong description, but a negative would be uselessly retaliative at this point as the seller positively cooperated in settling the issue. How I wish that the seller of "my" Rodesntock was just as well cooperative!

I also agree that leaving the lens under the sun will most probably have no effect at all. With the 100$ you got back you should take it to a serious camera rapair shop, have the lenses cleaned, and also the shutter times checked on the bench while it's there. As already written by btaylor, I also do this with everything that I purchase, and even if the gear was used by a photogrepher until few days before the sale, there's always something that needs to be fixed or calibrated (in 100% of my cases there was something to do with the fastest time of curtain shutters: only a part of the frame was exposed in "as received" conditions).

As said earlier, should everything fail, you will still have money enough to afford a Sekor C 127mm and resell the KL for parts. So you're in a win/win scenario. Not too bad, is it?

Good luck and please keep us updated!

FrederikTheisen · Nov 8, 2017

I didn't ask for a 100 USD refund, I just said that 30 USD wasn't enough and that a new would cost me 200 USD, so the seller proposed 100 USD.

I constantly changing between accepting their 100 USD offer and returning the camera.
I must consider the lens as broken, but at least I'll have a working camera until I get a new 127mm KL or C lens (anyone?). With a somewhat functional camera, I have plenty of time to look for a good 127mm lens.
Have anyone seen a side by side image comparison of the KL vs the C? The exterior of the KL seems more streamlined and durable but I've read that their internals are more fragile... the KL is also slightly faster than the C.

Not sure how much I'll be able to sell the hazy KL lens for (around 100 USD?)

Positive feedback is out of the question with a 100 USD return. Neutral feedback would probably be the right way to go.

paul ron · Nov 8, 2017

EdSawyer said:
Remove the rear group with a spanner and see if you can clean the inner surface. IT's probably not too hard to do so. If it's between elements in the rear group that becomes a bigger issue. I've opened, cleaned, and repaired many RZ67 lenses, the RB ones should be similar.

take out the rear cell and try cleaning it with denatured alcohol.

the cell unscrews easily. you can use a straight edge metal in the notches to get it out.

polka · Nov 8, 2017

Why not first do a test (b&w) film : sunny weather - cloudy - against the sun - away from it - etc and see what you get with the lens as it is ?
if it seems OK or "not so bad" do a color slide film (more trying).
Polka

FrederikTheisen · Nov 8, 2017

Developing a roll of Portra 400 in a minute, we'll see how it turns out. I only do C41 so a roll of Portra is cheaper than any BW film.
There were also the issue of the small dink in the rear glass, so all in all, the lens is probably just for show. That leaves me with a decent Pro-SD body (+back), with a slightly hazy mirror (not a big deal) and a somewhat dirty focus screen (it seems to get dusty really fast). Everything else seems to be in excellent working condition.
But right now I think I'll take the loss of the lens minus the 100 USD. Then I'll spend some time looking around for a new 127mm lens.

I'll probably respond tonight with something like their offer won't make me a satisfied customer but it won't yield negative feedback either (so neutral feedback) and see what they say to that.

paul ron · Nov 8, 2017

the glass dinks can be blackened so they dont flare.

Sirius Glass · Nov 8, 2017

Usually after something like this, one has the same model camera show up at a better price and in better condition. We have had a lot of that going around at ~~APUG~~ Photrio.

FrederikTheisen · Nov 8, 2017

So, I've scanned a few of the photos now and here are some results. The images are from the scanner and not edited besides whatever the scanner does. The haze pretty obvious. I think sharpness I reduced too.

I guess it's an in-lens fairytale photoshop.

Sirius Glass · Nov 8, 2017

The chest of the guard has a glow of scattered light. Send the lens back.

Hazy lens

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